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 Post subject: Re: Group 2 medical
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:44 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
I think confusion arises due to some councils requiring drivers to meet the standards of group 2.

Rather than having a group 2 medical.



Agreed,we have had to meet these standards for 15+ years.


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 Post subject: Re: Group 2 medical
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:46 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
I think confusion arises due to some councils requiring drivers to meet the standards of group 2.

Rather than having a group 2 medical.


But having a Group 2 Medical (D4 Medical) means nothing to anyone other than the DVLA, your GP completes your D4 form but does not pass you as fit to drive, it's only the DVLA that can decide on the strength of your completed D4 medical as to whether not your fit to drive and they can only Process HGV and PCV applications and have nothing to with Taxi or PH drivers.

the Group 2 Medical has 100% nothing to do with Taxi or PH drivers, We are covered by Group 1 fitness levels exactly the same as any other Car Driver License is.

If the LA's want a medical it should be a level that they themselves create and it should be that which they ask GP's to ensure your fit enough to meet.


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 Post subject: Re: Group 2 medical
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:59 am 
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bloodnock wrote:
Sussex wrote:
I think confusion arises due to some councils requiring drivers to meet the standards of group 2.

Rather than having a group 2 medical.


But having a Group 2 Medical (D4 Medical) means nothing to anyone other than the DVLA, your GP completes your D4 form but does not pass you as fit to drive, it's only the DVLA that can decide on the strength of your completed D4 medical as to whether not your fit to drive and they can only Process HGV and PCV applications and have nothing to with Taxi or PH drivers.

the Group 2 Medical has 100% nothing to do with Taxi or PH drivers, We are covered by Group 1 fitness levels exactly the same as any other Car Driver License is.

If the LA's want a medical it should be a level that they themselves create and it should be that which they ask GP's to ensure your fit enough to meet.



That is exactly what they have decided,you must meet group 2 standards and the Doctor records the necessary information on the form provided,stating you meet or do not the group 2 standards and you are fit or not to be granted a TAXI or Private hire drivers license.


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 Post subject: Re: Group 2 medical
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:59 am 
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Our problem is the doctors surgery,s will not do them, and an email received from the taxi inspector said we may have to travel to Edinburgh.

City Health Clinic, 9 Earl Grey Street, Edinburgh. 0131 228 2442 (Approx examination cost is £70 however if they require GP notes or further tests for an illness there is an extra charge.)
• GP Plus, 24 Dundas Street, Edinburgh, 0345 119 6049. (Approx. examination cost is £160 however if they require GP notes or further tests for an illness there is an extra charge)
• Your GP, 19 Hawthornbank Lane, Edinburgh, 0131 225 5656, (Approx. examination cost is £145 however if they require GP notes or further tests for an illness there is an extra charge)

There are 370 drivers in the Borders

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 Post subject: Re: Group 2 medical
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:35 pm 
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skippy41 wrote:
Our problem is the doctors surgery,s will not do them, and an email received from the taxi inspector said we may have to travel to Edinburgh.

City Health Clinic, 9 Earl Grey Street, Edinburgh. 0131 228 2442 (Approx examination cost is £70 however if they require GP notes or further tests for an illness there is an extra charge.)
• GP Plus, 24 Dundas Street, Edinburgh, 0345 119 6049. (Approx. examination cost is £160 however if they require GP notes or further tests for an illness there is an extra charge)
• Your GP, 19 Hawthornbank Lane, Edinburgh, 0131 225 5656, (Approx. examination cost is £145 however if they require GP notes or further tests for an illness there is an extra charge)

There are 370 drivers in the Borders


If there is 300+ drivers in the border region why not organise yourselves and approach several doctors practices giving them the option of accepting 300+ medicals,you can even get the information of the number that have to be done per year.
I am sure there must be a practice in your area who would not refuse the quantity of money that would be on offer.


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 Post subject: Re: Group 2 medical
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:27 am 
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bloodnock wrote:
If the LA's want a medical it should be a level that they themselves create and it should be that which they ask GP's to ensure your fit enough to meet.


But that's what the LAs are doing with the Group 2 standards, surely?

And the LAs are applying the standards rather than the DVLA?

Of course, quite normal for LAs to impose standards for cars and drivers above that for ordinary motorists, so Group 2 medical standards quite consistent with that. Otherwise, what would be the point of LAs and fit and proper tests for drivers and vehicles?

To a degree the Group 2 standards are used because it's convenient to adopt criteria that are well known and there's lots of information available about it, plus the medical profession are familiar with it, and drivers have a fair idea what it's all about.

LAs could develop their own standards, but this would be difficult and time consuming, and would entail lots of professional advice, and probably higher costs for the tests than simply adopting the familiar Group 2 examinations.


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 Post subject: Re: Group 2 medical
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:44 am 
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StuartW wrote:
bloodnock wrote:
If the LA's want a medical it should be a level that they themselves create and it should be that which they ask GP's to ensure your fit enough to meet.


But that's what the LAs are doing with the Group 2 standards, surely?

And the LAs are applying the standards rather than the DVLA?

Of course, quite normal for LAs to impose standards for cars and drivers above that for ordinary motorists, so Group 2 medical standards quite consistent with that. Otherwise, what would be the point of LAs and fit and proper tests for drivers and vehicles?

To a degree the Group 2 standards are used because it's convenient to adopt criteria that are well known and there's lots of information available about it, plus the medical profession are familiar with it, and drivers have a fair idea what it's all about.

LAs could develop their own standards, but this would be difficult and time consuming, and would entail lots of professional advice, and probably higher costs for the tests than simply adopting the familiar Group 2 examinations.


Not really. they are asking that we All attain the level of a Group 2 (D4 Medical) but don't want the Completed D4 Form in iself, they want the GP's to sign to say that you would have passed a D4 but the GP.s seem to argue that it is not they who decides who passes a D4 medical, they simply carry out the medical on behalf of the DVLA and send the completed D4s then handed back to the driver for them to the the to send off to the DVLA who assess who.s fit to drive. the Doctors seem to take that by them carrying out a D4 it's not the same as passing one as normally they don't make that decision

I know it seems a tad daft, but that's why i think the LA should have it's own level of medical fitness drafted in such a way that it allows the doctor to assess and make the decision as to whether or not you meet that criteria, and allow them to sign you fit or not to drive TAXis or PHs, this would beat the LAs approach of simply borrowing a medical test that has no relevance to them and no other guidance for the GPs.


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 Post subject: Re: Group 2 medical
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:32 am 
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bloodnock wrote:
Not really. they are asking that we All attain the level of a Group 2 (D4 Medical) but don't want the Completed D4 Form in iself, they want the GP's to sign to say that you would have passed a D4 but the GP.s seem to argue that it is not they who decides who passes a D4 medical, they simply carry out the medical on behalf of the DVLA and send the completed D4s then handed back to the driver for them to the the to send off to the DVLA who assess who.s fit to drive. the Doctors seem to take that by them carrying out a D4 it's not the same as passing one as normally they don't make that decision


Well obviously there are going to be procedural differences and different form filling, even if at the end of the day both the DVLA and LAs are using the same Group 2 criteria.

Sounds simply like there are communications problems between the GPs and your LA - maybe the correct procedures aren't being communicated or followed, and hardly a big surprise, particularly if it's a new framework.

At a rough guess part of the problem may be that the GPs are used to the DVLA's procedure, thus may be a bit disorientated by the LA's requirements, particularly if there's been communications problems.

Suspect too that there's an element of the LA trying to put the onus on the GPs as regards drivers being medically fit, whereas the GPs will be trying to do the opposite and leaving the onus on the LA. They will always have been sensitive to that kind of thing - effectively trying to lessen the blame that they'll attract if things go wrong - but no doubt a lot more sensitive about it all after the Harry Clark bin lorry thing in Glasgow.

In fact that's very probably the reason why yours and other LAs are beefing up their medical standards.

But at the end of the day it's ultimately for LAs to decide whether the driver is fit and proper, but it's hardly a surprise that they'd prefer the onus to be on the GPs, and vice versa.

bloodnock wrote:
I know it seems a tad daft, but that's why i think the LA should have it's own level of medical fitness drafted in such a way that it allows the doctor to assess and make the decision as to whether or not you meet that criteria, and allow them to sign you fit or not to drive TAXis or PHs, this would beat the LAs approach of simply borrowing a medical test that has no relevance to them and no other guidance for the GPs.


On the other hand, imagine the confusion if the LA did attempt to develop its own standards and get GPs to implement them! Would probably make the current confusion seem like a walk in the park.

So in fact using the Group 2 standard is probably minimising confusion rather than what would arise if each LA developed a wholly new scheme.

Remember that the Scottish Government's best practice guidance says:

Scottish Government's Best Practice Guidance wrote:
Medical Fitness

8.8. It is common for Scottish licensing authorities to apply the 'Group 2' medical standards (applied by DVLA to the licensing of lorry and bus drivers) to applicants for taxi and private hire car drivers' licences.


So that might indicate that, for the reasons indicated above, LAs will either continue with the basic standard or adopt the Group 2 criteria if they decide to beef things up.


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 Post subject: Re: Group 2 medical
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:39 pm 
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StuartW wrote:
bloodnock wrote:
Not really. they are asking that we All attain the level of a Group 2 (D4 Medical) but don't want the Completed D4 Form in iself, they want the GP's to sign to say that you would have passed a D4 but the GP.s seem to argue that it is not they who decides who passes a D4 medical, they simply carry out the medical on behalf of the DVLA and send the completed D4s then handed back to the driver for them to the the to send off to the DVLA who assess who.s fit to drive. the Doctors seem to take that by them carrying out a D4 it's not the same as passing one as normally they don't make that decision


Well obviously there are going to be procedural differences and different form filling, even if at the end of the day both the DVLA and LAs are using the same Group 2 criteria.

Sounds simply like there are communications problems between the GPs and your LA - maybe the correct procedures aren't being communicated or followed, and hardly a big surprise, particularly if it's a new framework.

At a rough guess part of the problem may be that the GPs are used to the DVLA's procedure, thus may be a bit disorientated by the LA's requirements, particularly if there's been communications problems.

Suspect too that there's an element of the LA trying to put the onus on the GPs as regards drivers being medically fit, whereas the GPs will be trying to do the opposite and leaving the onus on the LA. They will always have been sensitive to that kind of thing - effectively trying to lessen the blame that they'll attract if things go wrong - but no doubt a lot more sensitive about it all after the Harry Clark bin lorry thing in Glasgow.

In fact that's very probably the reason why yours and other LAs are beefing up their medical standards.

But at the end of the day it's ultimately for LAs to decide whether the driver is fit and proper, but it's hardly a surprise that they'd prefer the onus to be on the GPs, and vice versa.

bloodnock wrote:
I know it seems a tad daft, but that's why i think the LA should have it's own level of medical fitness drafted in such a way that it allows the doctor to assess and make the decision as to whether or not you meet that criteria, and allow them to sign you fit or not to drive TAXis or PHs, this would beat the LAs approach of simply borrowing a medical test that has no relevance to them and no other guidance for the GPs.


On the other hand, imagine the confusion if the LA did attempt to develop its own standards and get GPs to implement them! Would probably make the current confusion seem like a walk in the park.

So in fact using the Group 2 standard is probably minimising confusion rather than what would arise if each LA developed a wholly new scheme.

Remember that the Scottish Government's best practice guidance says:

Scottish Government's Best Practice Guidance wrote:
Medical Fitness

8.8. It is common for Scottish licensing authorities to apply the 'Group 2' medical standards (applied by DVLA to the licensing of lorry and bus drivers) to applicants for taxi and private hire car drivers' licences.


So that might indicate that, for the reasons indicated above, LAs will either continue with the basic standard or adopt the Group 2 criteria if they decide to beef things up.


Regardless of what Holyrood issues by way of Guidance to our LA's the fact remains that the D4 medical for Group 2 drivers has nothing to do with anyone other than DVLA's HGV and PCV licensing.

But Holyrood and the LA's should make it Crystal clear that they are not completing a D4 Medical form and that all they want is that a Taxi or PH driver is of a similar level of fitness ...but they are confusing the GP's in what they actually want, I reckon it should be deferred until all GP's fully understand whats required of them and that they receive full Holyrood and or LA instructions to that affect.


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 Post subject: Re: Group 2 medical
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:15 am 
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bloodnock wrote:
Regardless of what Holyrood issues by way of Guidance to our LA's the fact remains that the D4 medical for Group 2 drivers has nothing to do with anyone other than DVLA's HGV and PCV licensing.

But Holyrood and the LA's should make it Crystal clear that they are not completing a D4 Medical form and that all they want is that a Taxi or PH driver is of a similar level of fitness ...but they are confusing the GP's in what they actually want, I reckon it should be deferred until all GP's fully understand whats required of them and that they receive full Holyrood and or LA instructions to that affect.


Certainly agree that Holyrood should provide more clarity on these matters, and no doubt there are, er, teething problems with the change of policy.

But looking at your LA's website, the issues you seem to be questioning seem to be those raised in a court case and that the LA is now attempting to address? Presumably you've read this from last year, when it was proposed to implement a more concrete policy:

Scottish Borders Council wrote:
3.6 The working group acknowledged that the current process whereby only
those applicants who declared a medical condition which is likely to affect
their ability to drive are requested to provide evidence from their own GP
had worked well and should continue where possible. However there had
been occasions where applicants GP’s were unwilling to provide written
confirmation to a Group 2 standard and in those situations it was felt that
applicants should be able to discuss with the Council’s Licensing Team
alternative options whereby they will be able to undergo the required Group
2 Medical Assessment. For the avoidance of doubt it was the view of the
working group that the costs of obtaining a medical assessment to a Group
2 Standard should be met by the applicant in all instances.


3.7 In addition and subsequent to the setting up of a working group this
authority’s decision to suspend a taxi driver’s licence pending medical
evidence from his doctor that he had been assessed to a Group 2 standard
was challenged by way of appeal to the Sheriff at Selkirk Court. The basis
of the applicant’s appeal was that there was no legal requirement for a taxi
driver to complete a Group 2 medical and that this authority had no formal
policy to that effect. Following a hearing which took place at Selkirk Sheriff
Court on 9 June 2017, the Sheriff issued a judgement whereby he found
that this authority had not acted unreasonably in requesting that the
applicant provide a medical report that he meets a Group 2 medical
standard and that Section 13(4) of the Civic Government (Scotland) Act
1982 gave this authority the power to seek such a report. However, in his
judgement the sheriff commented that in his opinion it was unfortunate that
this authority do not have a published policy on the medical standards
required. The Sheriff’s comments reinforce the need for such a policy


http://scottishborders.moderngov.co.uk/ ... -2017a.pdf

All seems fairly straightforward, although what looks OK on paper isn't necessarily the same in practice. 8-[

That's an interesting comment about the fees for the examinations though - I thought it was always the LA that were required to pick up the tab for medicals. On the other hand, even if they did the fees would probably be recovered indirectly via an increase in licence fees.

Anyway, s. 13(4) of the Act says:

Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 wrote:
A licensing authority may, at any time, for the purposes of satisfying themselves that he is physically fit to drive a taxi or, as the case may be, private hire car, require an applicant for or holder of a taxi driver’s licence or private hire car driver’s licence to submit to medical examination, at their expense, by a medical practitioner nominated by them.


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1982/45/section/13



The Scottish Development Department Circular 25/1986 explains s. 13(4):

SDD Circular 25/1986 wrote:
Medical Examination

2.28 Subsection (4) provides that a licensing authority may at any time require an applicant for, or a holder of, a taxi or private hire car driver's licence to submit to a medical inspection. The inspection is to be carried out by a medical practitioner nominated by the authority, although there is nothing to stop the authority from nominating the driver's own doctor or specialist. The costs of any such medical examination will be at the expense of the licensing authority (although they may recover the costs of this from all applicants and licence holders by including such costs in the fees to be charged under section 12). It is not expected that such examinations would be automatic - bearing in mind that applicants will already be holders of ordinary driving licences - and it is anticipated that they will be required by authorities only where there are specific grounds for concern about the medical fitness of the applicant or the driver - on age, accident or health record.


http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2012/04/2261/2

Could be wrong, but don't think there's been any change in the law in this regard.


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 Post subject: Re: Group 2 medical
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:42 pm 
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Locally all drivers have to pay for their own medical, which is generally par for the course.

But should an existing driver have an issue which needs to be referred to an independant GP/Consultant, then those fees are paid out of licensing fees.

In short the fit help out the not so fit, which isn’t a bad thing in my view.

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 Post subject: Re: Group 2 medical
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:55 pm 
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http://councilpapers.scotborders.gov.uk/documents/s20444/Item%20No.%206%20-%20Report%20-%20Taxi%20Driver%20Private%20Hire%20Driver%20Medical%20Assessments%20-%2003-11-2017a.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Group 2 medical
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:23 am 
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skippy41 wrote:



Quote:
4IMPLICATIONS
4.1
Financial
There are no substantive cost implications arising for the Council.


But it doesn't matter about the poor saps that will have to pay between £60 and £250 for the privilege of having to obtain a fechin truck drivers medical just to drive a car....and that's each and every year after your 65, all because of some half baked guidance and not an actual Law or legal requirement.

They must think we are all minted.


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 Post subject: Re: Group 2 medical
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:40 am 
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Its 60 in my area.

Makes you feel like you've got one foot in the grave - and the extra expense I could do without


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 Post subject: Re: Group 2 medical
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:44 pm 
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Never forget when my doctor told the receptionist to only charge me half price.

Poor girl didn’t know what to do, so I told her to only charge me 50% of the normal fee. :roll:

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