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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:00 am 
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Why not ban all drink-driving?

Wednesday 16th June 2010

By Jon Kelly
BBC News Magazine

A government report recommends cutting the blood-alcohol limit for drivers, but critics say this risks confusing motorists about how much they can drink. Might we just as well go for an outright ban?

Barely 40 years ago, driving after drinking alcohol was a common occurrence. Today, it is socially unacceptable to all but a tiny minority.

But as the families of those who continue to die on Britain's roads will attest, the problem has hardly disappeared.

It is an issue legal expert Sir Peter North has been charged with tackling.

In a report commissioned by ministers, he calls for a reduction in the driving limit from 80mg to 50mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood, bringing the UK into line with most EU countries. It's a decision so far only devolved to Northern Ireland, which intends to make the same cut.

It's a move supported by a wide range of groups from across British civil society: the Association of Chief Police Officers, the British Medical Association and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents. Even many drivers' groups back the reduction, with the RAC offering its support and the AA saying that two-thirds of its members are behind it.

Advocates argue it will send a clear signal that alcohol and the road do not mix. The Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety (Pacts) estimates it could save 65 lives a year, as Switzerland noted a drop in alcohol-related road deaths after it reduced the limit to 50mg from 80mg:

But the proposal has attracted two sets of critics - on the one hand, those who say any reduction would be a draconian crackdown on hitherto law-abiding motorists, and on the other, supporters of zero tolerance who want drinking and driving banned outright.

They may appear to have very little in common. But both sets of sceptics agree on one point: a 50mg limit would lack the unambiguous clarity of an outright ban.

A 2005 study by Professor Richard Allsop of University College London divided the UK's drivers into three groups: the overwhelming majority who do not drink and drive at all; the 1% who drive well over the limit regardless of the law; and about 2% who drive after drinking, but seek to stay within the limit.

The key question for all sides is how those in the latter category might respond to any changes - and both supporters of zero tolerance and opponents of any reduction believe the halfway house of 50mg would simply confuse them.

Road safety campaign group Brake believes any partial reduction should only be a stepping stone to a limit of 20mg - as close to an absolute ban as possible, it believes, without penalising those with trace elements of alcohol in their bloodstream from, say, using mouthwash or nibbling on chocolate liqueurs.

Campaigns officer Ellen Booth warns even a 50mg limit would encourage misapprehensions about a certain alcohol limit - such as a small glass of wine or a half-pint of beer - being safe to imbibe before driving when, in fact, no such standard can be calculated given people's different physiologies and metabolisms.

"There's no way to calculate what's a safe limit - as it stands, basically people have to guess," she says.

"The Department of Transport's Think campaign tells people not to drink and drive at all, but the law says otherwise. There shouldn't be any room for confusion."

Conversely, Nigel Humphries of the Association of British Drivers opposes any reduction, arguing that this would remove any incentive to stay within the law for the small number of drivers who try to drink within the limit.

"We think this would harden attitudes - people don't take notice of daft laws," he says. "You've got to have legislation that is sensible.

"Simply fiddling with the limit confuses what should be a clear message: don't drink and drive."

Mr Humphries argues the drop in drink-related road deaths has far more to do with tough enforcement and hard-hitting road safety campaigns than the actual legal limit.

Indeed, there is little doubt that drink-driving deaths have fallen sharply since the 80mg limit was introduced in 1967. In 2008, the most recent year for which figures are available, 430 people were killed in road accidents involving illegal alcohol levels in Britain, up from 410 in 2007.

But according to the Department of Transport, the figure is still down by two-thirds on the 1970s, despite a large increase in the number of cars.

In international terms, the statistics are more ambiguous.

The World Heath Organization estimated in 2008 that the proportion of UK road deaths attributable to alcohol was 17% - higher than Sweden on 16%, Germany on 12% and the Czech republic on 3.4%, but lower than France on 27%, the Irish Republic on 37% and Estonia on 48%. Overall, the European Commission says UK road deaths are relatively low at 43 per million inhabitants compared with 54 per million in Germany, 67 per million in France and 98 per million in Estonia.

Robert Gifford, executive director of Pacts, is a strong supporter of the 50mg limit, arguing that it sends a clear message without punishing those who consume only a very moderate amount of alcohol.

He says a landmark study conducted in Grand Rapids, Michigan, during the 1960s suggested the likelihood of involvement in an accident becomes greater at this point.

"We know that the probability of being involved in an accident increases after 50mg - you're not just stating an abstract level. Of course this is only part of the solution - you have to accompany it with enforcement and advertising."

He also cites a 1998 study by the Department for the Environment, Transport and the Regions which suggested that between 50mg and 80mg, drivers were 2-2.5% more likely to be involved in a collision than those who had not touched alcohol at all, and six times more likely to be involved in a fatal crash.

Whether the coalition government follows Sir Peter's advice, of course, remains to be seen.

When the review was launched in December 2009, shadow transport secretary Theresa Villiers said the Conservatives had "yet to be convinced of the case for an across-the-board reduction in the drink-driving limit".

The Liberal Democrats, however, support a reduction to 50mg.

All sides may be unlikely to find common ground soon. But they will surely each concur that a single death on the road due to drink-driving is one too many.

BEREAVED MOTHER'S VIEW

Christine Matkin's son Sam, 22, was killed by a drunk motorist driving the wrong way on dual carriageway.

"My son was declared dead at the scene, but the other guy was cut out with minor injuries. He was three times over the limit, but the limit has got to be zero when driving.

"Alcohol affects people differently, but so long as people are allowed to drink, there is an excuse. Our thoughts are: for the sake of a £10 taxi fare, just because the guy didn't want to pay out, our son would still be alive."

As told to Vanessa Barford


Source; BBC News Magazine

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:09 am 
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My view is that lowering the drink-drive limit would create a situation that the limit would then be so low that people would never be certain that they were not over the limit, even after a little tipple.

I believe that would be basically unjust, so the only answer would be an outright ban, i.e. NO alcohol if you are driving.

Obviously if you were taking alcohol based medication, or even alcohol based mouthwash, you would not be able to drive either.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:07 am 
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The main reason that I can see for not having a zero limit is thet many medicines have a bit of alcohol in them so if you take some cough mixture you would be over the limit.
The message has got to put that not drinking at all must be the norm. It is silly to flirt will the limit. Anyone who has even a shandy should not drive. But you are OK to take a teaspoon of cough mixture.
If you are going to have a drink, get a taxi or PH or simply walk.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:53 am 
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I've always advocated a ZERO limit. If it's a mouthwash or cough mixture that has been imbibed then I can see the breath test giving a false reading, but the blood test would be negligible, would it not?

Take away all the uncertainty about height/weight/build/male/female etc, influencing the ability to drink drive, make it illegal to have any alcohol in your system before getting behind the wheel. Simples.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:30 pm 
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Simple really.

There's not enough recsources to Police it now, there won't be with a new limit either.

If I have a beer with my dinner at 7pm and work the next day, at say . . midday, by using the above, i'd still have the faintest trace in my body even though i'd had one can of beer 17 hours previously.

Not really on is it?

Half of Britain would be driving illegaly.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:36 pm 
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Bread is made with a fermentation process, not unlike the method used for brewing beer. Yeast is used in both. Bread has an alcohol content which would raise the amount in your body after eating your lunchtime sandwich.

Speed limits do not prevent speeding.

Reducing alcohol limits would not reduce drink driving.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:31 pm 
I've always been a strong believer in zero alcohol. After witnessing 2 children and their mother wiped out by a drunk driver some years ago the zero policy can't come soon enough.

You've got to be there to see the damage done, not just on the bereaved side but the wife of the driver who also had children. You can't imagine what she was going through, she wasn't bothered about her husband who was going to jail, all she kept saying was them poor children who'd lost their lives because of her husbands stupid actions.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:42 pm 
jimbo wrote:
Bread is made with a fermentation process, not unlike the method used for brewing beer. Yeast is used in both. Bread has an alcohol content which would raise the amount in your body after eating your lunchtime sandwich.

Speed limits do not prevent speeding.

Reducing alcohol limits would not reduce drink driving.


Agree with the above 200%.

What people don't realise is, when you've had a drink your body doesn't start to process the alcohol until 2 hours after your last drink so, if you've had 4 pints of Wife Beater, each pint is 3 units of alcohol so basically you've had 12 units of alcohol, your body processes 2 units of alcohol each hour.

Your last drink was at 10pm your body won't start to process that alcohol until 12 midnight, your body starts to process it at 2 units an hour, your body might be clear of alcohol at 6am, "I say might", everyone is different.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:43 pm 
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It probably wont save a single Life...the Fatal accidents where the Drivers involved had consumed and driven whilst under the legal limit would probably have happened anyway.

How can the road safety campaigners say for sure how many live would be saved when the past records indicate the drivers involved were legally fit to drive.

These Safety people go over board every time...in most cases they have a personal interest and vent their fury on anything with wheels.

I.M.O The limit should stay where it is, that said the Punishment for those over our Liberal UK limits should be toughened and the guilty punished more...and a repeat offender banned for life.


This example below has nothing to do with our current limit...it was an Ar*ehole that was 3 times over the limit.

Quote:
BEREAVED MOTHER'S VIEW

Christine Matkin's son Sam, 22, was killed by a drunk motorist driving the wrong way on dual carriageway.

"My son was declared dead at the scene, but the other guy was cut out with minor injuries. He was three times over the limit, but the limit has got to be zero when driving.

"Alcohol affects people differently, but so long as people are allowed to drink, there is an excuse. Our thoughts are: for the sake of a £10 taxi fare, just because the guy didn't want to pay out, our son would still be alive."

As told to Vanessa Barford


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:02 pm 
bloodnock wrote:
It probably wont save a single Life...the Fatal accidents where the Drivers involved had consumed and driven whilst under the legal limit would probably have happened anyway.

How can the road safety campaigners say for sure how many live would be saved when the past records indicate the drivers involved were legally fit to drive.

These Safety people go over board every time...in most cases they have a personal interest and vent their fury on anything with wheels.

I.M.O The limit should stay where it is, that said the Punishment for those over our Liberal UK limits should be toughened and the guilty punished more...and a repeat offender banned for life.


This example below has nothing to do with our current limit...it was an Ar*ehole that was 3 times over the limit.

Quote:
BEREAVED MOTHER'S VIEW

Christine Matkin's son Sam, 22, was killed by a drunk motorist driving the wrong way on dual carriageway.

"My son was declared dead at the scene, but the other guy was cut out with minor injuries. He was three times over the limit, but the limit has got to be zero when driving.

"Alcohol affects people differently, but so long as people are allowed to drink, there is an excuse. Our thoughts are: for the sake of a £10 taxi fare, just because the guy didn't want to pay out, our son would still be alive."

As told to Vanessa Barford


I didn't see it that way Bloodnock, seeing it from a different angle IMO will make alot of difference if they toughend the Punishment.

What makes me mad is, when someone gets a 16 month ban they will reduce it by 4 months if they go on a driver awareness course. :roll: :roll: :roll:

If we are to go down the toughend punishment route I suggest a minmum of 28 months ban and a £2000 fine, no deductions for going on a course, "you will serve the whole ban".

If they are caught driving while banned they will serve the remainding time of their ban "in jail" but will still be banned when they come out for a further 6 months.

Is that to hard?? :D :shock:


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:42 pm 
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Nigel wrote:
bloodnock wrote:
It probably wont save a single Life...the Fatal accidents where the Drivers involved had consumed and driven whilst under the legal limit would probably have happened anyway.

How can the road safety campaigners say for sure how many live would be saved when the past records indicate the drivers involved were legally fit to drive.

These Safety people go over board every time...in most cases they have a personal interest and vent their fury on anything with wheels.

I.M.O The limit should stay where it is, that said the Punishment for those over our Liberal UK limits should be toughened and the guilty punished more...and a repeat offender banned for life.

This example below has nothing to do with our current limit...it was an Ar*ehole that was 3 times over the limit.

Quote:
BEREAVED MOTHER'S VIEW

Christine Matkin's son Sam, 22, was killed by a drunk motorist driving the wrong way on dual carriageway.

"My son was declared dead at the scene, but the other guy was cut out with minor injuries. He was three times over the limit, but the limit has got to be zero when driving.

"Alcohol affects people differently, but so long as people are allowed to drink, there is an excuse. Our thoughts are: for the sake of a £10 taxi fare, just because the guy didn't want to pay out, our son would still be alive."

As told to Vanessa Barford


I didn't see it that way Bloodnock, seeing it from a different angle IMO will make alot of difference if they toughend the Punishment.

What makes me mad is, when someone gets a 16 month ban they will reduce it by 4 months if they go on a driver awareness course. :roll: :roll: :roll:

If we are to go down the toughend punishment route I suggest a minmum of 28 months ban and a £2000 fine, no deductions for going on a course, "you will serve the whole ban".

If they are caught driving while banned they will serve the remainding time of their ban "in jail" but will still be banned when they come out for a further 6 months.

Is that to hard?? :D :shock:




Not at all.........as you say, why give a reduction to the sentence as it defeats the very object of the punishment. that asides they would be jobless alkies anyway and would then receive the alcoholics allowance so they can get even more P*ssed the next time they decide to drive a car..its lunacy!!! :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:44 pm 
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Bread is made with a fermentation process, not unlike the method used for brewing beer. Yeast is used in both. Bread has an alcohol content which would raise the amount in your body after eating your lunchtime sandwich.


The alcohol made by beer is produced after the boiling process in a fermenting tun

The alcohol produced when making bread is made when the bread rises and is evaporated off when it's cooked. :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:38 pm 
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echo15 wrote:
Bread is made with a fermentation process, not unlike the method used for brewing beer. Yeast is used in both. Bread has an alcohol content which would raise the amount in your body after eating your lunchtime sandwich.


The alcohol made by beer is produced after the boiling process in a fermenting tun

The alcohol produced when making bread is made when the bread rises and is evaporated off when it's cooked. :wink:


Are you sure about that? Are you a Masterbaker?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:49 pm 
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jimbo wrote:
echo15 wrote:
Bread is made with a fermentation process, not unlike the method used for brewing beer. Yeast is used in both. Bread has an alcohol content which would raise the amount in your body after eating your lunchtime sandwich.


The alcohol made by beer is produced after the boiling process in a fermenting tun

The alcohol produced when making bread is made when the bread rises and is evaporated off when it's cooked. :wink:

Are you sure about that? Are you a Masterbaker?

And do you know anything about meat & candles?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:57 pm 
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Nigel wrote:

If they are caught driving while banned they will serve the remainding time of their ban "in jail" but will still be banned when they come out for a further 6 months.

Is that to hard?? :D :shock:


Excellent idea, now can you tell me where all these extra prison places are?

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