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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:47 pm 
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captain cab wrote:

When I hear calls from elements of the Hackney carriage trade to further regulate the private hire trade I really do despair.


Well can't you stop continually moaning about crap earnings, oversupply etc?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:49 pm 
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Dusty Bin wrote:
captain cab wrote:

When I hear calls from elements of the Hackney carriage trade to further regulate the private hire trade I really do despair.


Well can't you stop continually moaning about crap earnings, oversupply etc?



I can start talking about sheep and sheep dogs if you want....one of my mates is a grand master with his team of dogs.

CC

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:01 am 
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Yes, really getting to the point as usual. :roll:

Good points in the article about the breadth of what PH licensing encompasses though, but as regards the mainstream minicab trade it and the HC are basically two sides of the same coin as far as I'm concerned. Indeed didn't your family firm previously run HCs and PH?

Some quite good stuff in the article otherwise as well, which I've only just had time to read. The other night I just looked at the pictures :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:05 am 
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Dusty Bin wrote:
Yes, really getting to the point as usual. :roll:

Good points in the article about the breadth of what PH licensing encompasses though, but as regards the mainstream minicab trade it and the HC are basically two sides of the same coin as far as I'm concerned. Indeed didn't your family firm previously run HCs and PH?

Some quite good stuff in the article otherwise as well, which I've only just had time to read. The other night I just looked at the pictures :wink:


Yes minicabs and taxis for 50 years.......my point was the HC trade need to make sure there's a different public perception between them and PH.......as your post suggests....two sides of the same coin....thats how the public see it.

And thank you, I take your critique as a compliment.

CC

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:08 am 
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Nidge2 wrote:
captain cab wrote:
Is ignorance really a defence

Is it the taxi trades fault for the rise of private hire?



This article does not represent the views of the National Taxi Association

Taxi trade ignorance of private hire is widespread. The cab trade, on the whole, fail to recognise private hire covers such diverse activities as executive hire, minibus hire, limousines, novelty vehicles, firms specialising in airport, ferry terminal type operations and naturally the ‘run of the mill’ private hire or minicab companies. Moreover, Private Hire always has been, and still remains, a choice the public make when they pick up a telephone.

In certain parts of the country Private Hire (minicabs) are subject to the same basic requirements as Hackney Carriages to be licensed, yet one must surely wonder about the usefulness of a knowledge test to a firm and driver doing purely airport work, or indeed specialising in hiring limousines for special occasions.

Image

If a person wished to start up a private-hire business loosely based around a famous ‘Fawlty Towers’ scene, where the vehicle would be a red Austin 1100, which regularly breaks down, complete with a licensed driver, who has a moustache, and who on occasion gets out of the car and beats it with a branch, The chances are, in vast swathes of the country, this idea would be stifled by licensing laws.

Primarily, the local authority may well have an age policy, bearing in mind the car hasn’t been built since 1974. I envisage a potential problem. I also presume getting out of the vehicle in a rage and beating it with a tree branch is contrary to either NVQ assessments or BTEC training.

As already alluded to in this issue, the intention of private hire (minicab) licensing was to ensure people picking up members of the public were legitimate and that the cars were safe and the operators relatively honest. What we have now isn’t quite what parliament imagined. In fact I would contend they never seriously wanted local authorities (at least in my reading of Hansard) to have such control over private businesses.

The Hackney Carriage trade has to a certain degree, at least in the provincial cab trade, very guilty of hectoring and badgering local authorities into bringing in all manner of regulations upon the private hire trade. Local authorities, whose ignorance is personified through councillors (who have little knowledge or interest in taxi and private hire), have been consistently guilty of eagerly adopting over burdensome regulation. You need look no further than the City of Manchester, where the local authority brought in the rather idiotic notion of private hire colour regulation (PHV’s must be white or silver), seemingly ignoring the fact the public would soon see these coloured vehicles as legitimate taxis.

Image

Why the taxi trade in many areas have followed this route is obvious, all regulation, as the taxi trade knows only too well, has the effect of limiting entry, the BTEC and NVQ are merely a newer, more politically correct example of a type of knowledge test. To draw this conclusion you have to consider (for whatever reason), the Hackney carriage trade having always been considered the professionals, private hire was (and to a certain degree still remains) the illegitimate [edited by admin] offspring with a transient workforce.

Whilst training may have been developed in the private hire sector its purpose wasn’t to prevent people from entering the job (as some in the Hackney carriage trade appear to see it), it was to encourage people to stay. After all, who would go to all the bother to obtain a qualification to drive a PHV, only to cast it aside when a ‘proper’ job came about.

Of course, when mentioning training I should perhaps point out that a private hire driver appears to go through the exact same course as a hackney carriage driver. Fair enough, maybe. But can one of you please tell me, as one simple example of the stupidity, why a private hire (minicab) driver should undergo wheelchair training when loading a wheelchair is perhaps the one task they will almost certainly never have to accomplish?

The taxi trade often complain (and quite rightly) about the public being confused between private hire and hackney carriages, the press are a useful scapegoat very often branding both incorrectly as ‘taxis’. Yet for the most part a private hire driver must jump through the exact same hoops as a ‘proper’ taxi driver to obtain a license. Furthermore, in many areas a single ‘taxi’ driver license is issued, it’s called a dual license. The sad fact, in certain cases the dual license has been at the suggestion of taxi companies. In others it’s a local authority case of conditions being easier to attach to a license than byelaws. If a single license for two different trades doesn’t add to the confusion of local authority committees, the law commission and wider public, can you tell me what will?

When I hear calls from elements of the Hackney carriage trade to further regulate the private hire trade I really do despair. Once again, it not only shows a total ignorance of what private hire encompass, it’s a case of the taxi trade pontificating as to what is best for an industry they should be, now more than ever before, distancing themselves.

It would be negligent of me not to mention ‘out of town’ hackney carriages when writing this article, because although I have wrote about the phenomenon for more years than I care to remember, it clearly needs a few more words in the light of what I’ve written above.

Without going into the actual law (because there’s nothing more nauseating) we need to consider why it happened. Yes. I have heard the arguments about it being cheaper to license a hackney carriage in one area than a private hire in another. Whilst to be honest, I don’t see that as an entirely legitimate argument, especially if the authority which is merely a ‘flag of convenience’ ensures the vehicle must be tested within its own district, there can be little doubt costs do play at least a small part.

Image

Milton Keynes was one, very obvious example. Those of you who have photographic memories will remember the now former leader of Milton Keynes council (the strange looking chap with a beard) tell the transport select committee he would never allow Milton Keynes to regulate taxi numbers. What he didn’t tell, for whatever reason, was the cost to become a private hire or hackney driver in his borough. Bearing in mind the extortion, there can be little wonder many private hire drivers simply chose to license themselves as hackney carriages in neighbouring South Northants.

South Northants seem to have developed a knowledge test and more stringent criteria during 2011, so it will be interesting to find out in the future if the numbers of applications have been reduced as a result.

Incidentally, the first application fee in Milton Keynes is £354.00 for a driver induction course.

As previously stated, costs of licensing are merely part of the equation, the next obvious issue revolve around the vehicle, to a degree and if a local authority has in place an overly arduous vehicle age policy, particularly on first license, this again will play a part in a driver looking for alternative licensing arrangements. For example, a local authority may have a condition where they will only license a vehicle (on first application) if it is under a certain age.

If I was asked why a driver from one area chooses to license himself in another I would suggest it’s all about the ease of obtaining a license.

I am no particular fan of James TH Button, particularly his notion of a single tier system comprising of three internal tiers, yet I must acknowledge he does have a point.

Private Hire has elements which are only there because they were dragged kicking and screaming into taxi and private hire licensing – this element – as previously mentioned is the limousine / executive hire, novelty vehicle and minibus part of the private hire business.

These businesses, whilst still performing a service to the wider public are certainly not the ‘run of the mill’ minicab type outfits. Yes they need some type of minimal regulation of both driver and vehicle – but do they need the same type of regulation and stringency as normal minicab outfits – I’m not so sure.

By minimal I mean minimal driver regulations – full CRB but no knowledge test etc – minimal vehicle regulations – no age policy on vehicles – minimal testing arrangements etc.

However, and again as alluded to in the context of this article. If and when the executive hire, limousines, novelty vehicles and minibuses are removed (but not removed entirely) from the private hire regime, this leaves us with private hire minicabs. The shades of grey which are left are increasingly blurred, now whose fault is that?
.

.



Is that a swipe at UNITE?? :lol:


Nidge2 - misusing the quote function since 1965.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:18 am 
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captain cab wrote:
Yes minicabs and taxis for 50 years.......my point was the HC trade need to make sure there's a different public perception between them and PH.......as your post suggests....two sides of the same coin....thats how the public see it.


Well from the self-interest of the HC trade you're correct. But if you're also concerned about PH drivers then you shouldn't just be encouraging a free-for-all for the PH trade so that the public's perception of having two different trades is increased?

Can I thus take it that you're only bothered about oversupply, earnings etc for HCs rather than PH?

Anyway, as I alluded your point is fundamentally inconsistent for someone personally involved in a mixed fleet firm of 50 years' standing, surely?

Also, I'm not so sure if your point is actually in the best interests of the HC trade. If there's a PH free-for-all that just means lower fares and the like and thus people will be more inclined to phone for a PH rather than phone for an HC and indeed phone for an HC (or secure one illegally plying) rather than secure an HC at the rank.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:29 am 
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Dusty Bin wrote:

Well from the self-interest of the HC trade you're correct. But if you're also concerned about PH drivers then you shouldn't just be encouraging a free-for-all for the PH trade so that the public's perception of having two different trades is increased?

Can I thus take it that you're only bothered about oversupply, earnings etc for HCs rather than PH?

Anyway, as I alluded your point is fundamentally inconsistent for someone personally involved in a mixed fleet firm of 50 years' standing, surely?

Also, I'm not so sure if your point is actually in the best interests of the HC trade. If there's a PH free-for-all that just means lower fares and the like and thus people will be more inclined to phone for a PH rather than phone for an HC and indeed phone for an HC (or secure one illegally plying) rather than secure an HC at the rank.


Fundamentally inconsistent? wow.....you mean I'm special I guess.

I'm not concerned about PH drivers....that is the PH operators department to keep them happy.

It isnt in my view inconsistent, provided the PH operator increases the size of his firm in tandem with work, if he has no work, drivers leave.

My point was about what parliament intended with the 1976 act.....and what we have now.

CC

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:36 am 
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captain cab wrote:
Fundamentally inconsistent? wow.....you mean I'm special I guess.


Not quite what I meant. :roll:

Quote:
I'm not concerned about PH drivers....that is the PH operators department to keep them happy.


Well at least your honest, but that's a double standard in my book.

Quote:
It isnt in my view inconsistent, provided the PH operator increases the size of his firm in tandem with work, if he has no work, drivers leave.


But that's not how it normally works, either as regards HC or PH.

I mean take the guy in Stirling; not quite sure if he's HC or PH or both, but it doesn't really matter - he just wants as many drivers as possible to further his interests and tries to dress this up as reducing unemployment or whatever. Meanwhile, all this just depresses earnings for drivers, whether they be HC or PH.


Quote:
My point was about what parliament intended with the 1976 act.....and what we have now.


Indeed, but what did parliament intend HC knowledge test to achieve?

I don't think it was so London drivers could earn £100k :roll:


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:52 am 
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Dusty Bin wrote:
captain cab wrote:
Fundamentally inconsistent? wow.....you mean I'm special I guess.


Not quite what I meant. :roll:

Quote:
I'm not concerned about PH drivers....that is the PH operators department to keep them happy.


Well at least your honest, but that's a double standard in my book.

Quote:
It isnt in my view inconsistent, provided the PH operator increases the size of his firm in tandem with work, if he has no work, drivers leave.


But that's not how it normally works, either as regards HC or PH.

I mean take the guy in Stirling; not quite sure if he's HC or PH or both, but it doesn't really matter - he just wants as many drivers as possible to further his interests and tries to dress this up as reducing unemployment or whatever. Meanwhile, all this just depresses earnings for drivers, whether they be HC or PH.


Quote:
My point was about what parliament intended with the 1976 act.....and what we have now.


Indeed, but what did parliament intend HC knowledge test to achieve?

I don't think it was so London drivers could earn £100k :roll:



all worthy points.

CC

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:56 am 
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http://www.herding-dog-training-border- ... nology.htm

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:57 am 
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captain cab wrote:
http://www.herding-dog-training-border-collie-sheepdog-dvd.com/herding_sheepdog_command_terminology.htm


Thanks for that =D> =D> =D>


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:58 am 
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captain cab wrote:
Dusty Bin wrote:
captain cab wrote:
Fundamentally inconsistent? wow.....you mean I'm special I guess.


Not quite what I meant. :roll:

Quote:
I'm not concerned about PH drivers....that is the PH operators department to keep them happy.


Well at least your honest, but that's a double standard in my book.

Quote:
It isnt in my view inconsistent, provided the PH operator increases the size of his firm in tandem with work, if he has no work, drivers leave.


But that's not how it normally works, either as regards HC or PH.

I mean take the guy in Stirling; not quite sure if he's HC or PH or both, but it doesn't really matter - he just wants as many drivers as possible to further his interests and tries to dress this up as reducing unemployment or whatever. Meanwhile, all this just depresses earnings for drivers, whether they be HC or PH.


Quote:
My point was about what parliament intended with the 1976 act.....and what we have now.


Indeed, but what did parliament intend HC knowledge test to achieve?

I don't think it was so London drivers could earn £100k :roll:



all worthy points.

CC


And thanks for that as well =D> =D> =D>


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:59 am 
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Dusty Bin wrote:
captain cab wrote:
http://www.herding-dog-training-border-collie-sheepdog-dvd.com/herding_sheepdog_command_terminology.htm


Thanks for that =D> =D> =D>



you southerners need educating :lol:

CC

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:02 am 
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captain cab wrote:
Dusty Bin wrote:
captain cab wrote:
http://www.herding-dog-training-border-collie-sheepdog-dvd.com/herding_sheepdog_command_terminology.htm


Thanks for that =D> =D> =D>



you southerners need educating :lol:

CC


In fact my family had a sheepdog when I was young and we lived on a farm, although it wasn't a working dog.

Nearly worried a few cows though. :roll:


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:06 am 
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Dusty Bin wrote:

In fact my family had a sheepdog when I was young and we lived on a farm, although it wasn't a working dog.

Nearly worried a few cows though. :roll:


was it called old shep....because we'll all break out in song.....then tears.

http://www.petrest.com/images/OldShep.mp3

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