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UK cab trade debate and advice
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:58 pm 
Ross wrote:
Quote:
Ross

Sorry this simply doesn't compute. Would you like to explain it?


Jim, you are listed as one of Alan Roden (Transport Evening News) contacts. Which means he would have contacted you for a comment on the survey. You either had nothing to say or he didn't catch you in.

You are never out of the Evening news letters page with your opinions, but you never write to complain of any false information printed in the Evening News about the trade you care for so much ?


You've gotta be more specific.

However, the arguments have been well articulated.

It now comes down to whatever it takes. However long it takes.

I don't think it's going to hurt me. I don't care about you.

Every man for himself, what?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:00 pm 
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Sirius wrote:
Well let me just remind you that I dont have a plate to sell, I have never had one!

The point I am making is this, if the number limit was lifted tomorrow would the fare structure change to reflect this, looking around the rest of the Country I would have to draw the conclusion that it makes no difference to the fare levels set otherwise the areas that have lifted the limit on numbers would have significantly lower fares and a better service, they would have no serious competition from buses, PH or any other means of getting from a to b but they do and often more than us, my concern in this is not that plate values will fall or disappear, or that it would deny you the chance to hurt any "idiots", it's about drivers income falling to levels where it would no longer become feasible to drive a Taxi for a living, or have a fleet of quality wheelchair accessible M1 spec vehicles.

If you could just answer the points without becoming abusive to anyone who disagrees with your vision of utopia it might help things move along in the right direction, I kind of get the impression you are more intrested in getting back at the "idiots" and unfortunately everyone in your eyes seems to be one if they dont see things from your point of view.


As for your 80% figure in the Evening News survey, that was a loaded question, was that the same public who knocked back the chance to unlock £2 billion pound to improve/replace the housing stock in Edinburgh as long as they agreed to transfer to associations.



I can’t be bothered going through this again and if you don’t know by now you never will. As far as I’m concerned everyone out there has had their chance now its sink or swim, this trade is getting bust wide open and it has my blessing. I don’t intend to return to driving taxis I’ve had enough too many servile idiots for my liking. If you want to shape your trade then do it on your on initiative I just want to slaughter it for my own amusement. Jim and I have put the argument over dozens of times, no more. :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:41 pm
Posts: 260
Location: Edinburgh
Quote:
Now Sirius, consider the scenario.

Drivers are allowed to operate their own licences. This will put pressure on drivers to work precisely when the public needs them. No point sitting on a rank doing nothing is there.

This means that drivers will need to cover rush hours, peak periods and, yes, overnight weekends. Those who don't won't earn.

This is why de-restriction is so attractive to the paying public.

They will be able to get a taxi when they need one.

At other times, there will be a regular supply of taxis, the public will just need to step out of their brownstone and stick the hand up. Who would need to fone for a cab, or a private hire.



Your scenario doesn't take into account the councils transport plans.
More busses, trams, railway link to the airport, where do we fit in Jim ? NOWHERE !
In tonights news there is an article on the airport expansion, and what do they have planned for taxis ? TAXI SHARING whats that about ?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:06 pm 
Well Ross.

Interesting you mention the Airport.

Just as the Waverley was mentioned before. Remember when City Cabs did the dirty and went it alone.

That was the time when everyone knew our trade was divided and emininently shaftable.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:10 pm 
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Posts: 280
Determination of prices for taxi services
DRAFT COMMMENTS

We thank the Commissioner for the invitation to comment on the above.

We have a number of areas of concern in regard to the matters raised in the issue paper. We believe that the Commission may not be aware of all or some of the following factors and suggest that any future determination regarding the pricing of taxi fares should be made taking account of these factors. We also suggest that the costing model may be improved if the model were able to embrace our suggestions. We regard the suggestion that a surplus under this model suggests that taxi fares should fall as both inappropriate and unfair on drivers.

For your information, Canberra has a large number of taxi drivers who drive either part or full time. We understand that in more lucrative times there were around 1100 active drivers. We now believe that this figure is closer to 800 active drivers (Canberra Cabs will be able to be more precise on these figures should you wish more accurate figures). These drivers are typically are over 40 years of age and, because of their age find difficulty in obtaining alternate employment. In many cases these drivers work for a lot less than the $11.43 per hour that the model indicates as average taxi driver earnings. (NB: Saturday dayshift, Sunday day and night shifts, Monday night, Tuesday night and Wednesday night shifts all attract less than $11.43 per hour particularly if the drivers are required to work the full 12 hours – Workers in other industries are rewarded at time and a half or more for working similar hours and times!). ACTION pays bus drivers around $20 per hour, Woolworth’s pay checkout staff $13.78 per hour, with both these employers paying entitlements, like superanuation sick and holiday pay.

We acknowledge that taxi drivers make a good hourly rate during some shifts. However there are occasions (such as during the month of January and school holidays) when the demand for taxis is so low that drivers can earn as little as $4 per hour. Taxi drivers are normally regarded as self-employed and as such are responsible for the collection of GST and the remittance of that tax to the ATO (1/11th of earnings). On remuneration levels as low as this, the setting aside of superannuation is obviously difficult. As a self-employed sub contractor any driver who has the misfortune to have an “at fault” accident will be held responsible for the insurance excess. Should a driver be unfortunate enough to have 2 at fault accidents over a 3-year period any accident will cost that driver $1000 in excess payments.

The pricing model has a typical taxi traveling 206000km per year returning $163,493. We are of the opinion that this is not as typical as the Commission have assumed. Because of the low returns offered drivers during some shifts, (see above), a large number of taxi operators are unable to find drivers. Many owners and leased plate operators do a large percentage of driving themselves. We suggest the number of these operators who drive their taxi as little as 55 – 60 hours per week (five full shifts) would be limited to those owners who own their plates outright. The pricing model does not account for this scenario as a vehicle traveling less than the pricing model suggests only saves on the reduced running costs, with the fixed costs of the operation remain static.

The recent Federal Election, Ansett collapse and the events of September 11 have combined to cause a larger downturn in work than is usual under the normal fluctuations that are associated with the taxi industry. This coupled with the introduction of extra WATS vehicles and the Queanbyan taxi fleet gaining access to the Canberra Airport and ranks have had a combined negative effect on the income available to drivers and Operators. We believe that the year 2002 also looks difficult. Federal Parliament will only be in session for some 19 weeks this year. Any continuation of the downward work demand makes the pricing model less accurate.

We find it difficult to agree with the inclusion of non-fare income in the pricing model (see page 3 of the issues paper). This non-fare income is generated by investment returns and trading incentives paid to operators by Canberra Cabs. The $3895 included in the pricing model has the effect of costing each driver about $40 a week. We respectfully request a re-examination of this factor in any future determinations of fare structures. We question whether the model should take into account of Canberra Cabs (a Co-operative Society) acting like an investment organization. This could well be outside the Co-operative Societies Act. Namely Section 22A and sections 37 (1) (a).

The issue of plate value being reflected in the pricing model (see page 4) is of concern given that without the inclusion of an investment return the viability of the taxi plate as a business could be threatened. This usually is reflected in an operator initially cutting corners (e.g. non-payment of workers compensation insurance {we are aware of this happening} and lengthening of service and maintenance periods) in the operation of the taxi. We respectfully request that the inclusion of a reasonable investment return be costed into the pricing model.

Therefore the Commission should be aware that in order to earn a respectable wage a taxi driver must work considerably more than the assumed 60hr week. (Even using the Commissions assumption of $11.43 per hour, full time drivers working a five day week would earn $685.80 minus $62.50 (GST) = $623.30 per week before tax for a sixty hour week without superannuation, recreation leave, sick leave, long service, shift loadings or any other deductions!)

Page 6 of the issues paper discusses the variance in day (rate 1) and night (rate 2) rates. We support the Commissioners opinion that there is little or no difference in the operating costs between day and night or weekday or weekend operations of a taxi. There should be however recognition that driver’s must be paid more for working these hours. Because work patterns change over any given 24 hour period (and on a weekly and monthly basis), compensation for after hour labor costs through flag fall changes may have the effect of lowering returns to drivers. Average hiring distances on Saturday nights could be as high as 20 km, but because the work flows mainly one direction (ie into Civic in the early part of the evening and out of Civic later at night) the distance traveled and subsequently the time taken to complete each hiring is longer. Saturday / Sunday morning work mostly involves short distance trips (suburbs to the local shops) with average distances traveled less than 6 km. Driver remuneration is low now (see above) and any attempt to compensate after hour payments solely through flag fall changes may have the effect of lessening driver returns. We believe that starting times for rate 2 should be changed to 6 PM and extended to 7 AM thereby compensating drivers more in line with traditional overtime payments.


http://www.icrc.act.gov.au/__data/asset ... ramsay.doc

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:12 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:41 pm
Posts: 260
Location: Edinburgh
Quote:
Well Ross.

Interesting you mention the Airport.

Just as the Waverley was mentioned before. Remember when City Cabs did the dirty and went it alone.

That was the time when everyone knew our trade was divided and emininently shaftable.


I haven't forgotten.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:14 pm 
Sirius

Why don't you do us all a favour and precis this?

I'm also kinda interested in how you manage to come up with this verbage.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:14 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:03 pm
Posts: 280
Skull wrote:
Sirius wrote:
Well let me just remind you that I dont have a plate to sell, I have never had one!

The point I am making is this, if the number limit was lifted tomorrow would the fare structure change to reflect this, looking around the rest of the Country I would have to draw the conclusion that it makes no difference to the fare levels set otherwise the areas that have lifted the limit on numbers would have significantly lower fares and a better service, they would have no serious competition from buses, PH or any other means of getting from a to b but they do and often more than us, my concern in this is not that plate values will fall or disappear, or that it would deny you the chance to hurt any "idiots", it's about drivers income falling to levels where it would no longer become feasible to drive a Taxi for a living, or have a fleet of quality wheelchair accessible M1 spec vehicles.

If you could just answer the points without becoming abusive to anyone who disagrees with your vision of utopia it might help things move along in the right direction, I kind of get the impression you are more intrested in getting back at the "idiots" and unfortunately everyone in your eyes seems to be one if they dont see things from your point of view.


As for your 80% figure in the Evening News survey, that was a loaded question, was that the same public who knocked back the chance to unlock £2 billion pound to improve/replace the housing stock in Edinburgh as long as they agreed to transfer to associations.



I can’t be bothered going through this again and if you don’t know by now you never will. As far as I’m concerned everyone out there has had their chance now its sink or swim, this trade is getting bust wide open and it has my blessing. I don’t intend to return to driving taxis I’ve had enough too many servile idiots for my liking. If you want to shape your trade then do it on your on initiative I just want to slaughter it for my own amusement. Jim and I have put the argument over dozens of times, no more. :wink:



So it's about revenge then, revenge on the drivers who you see as servile idiots :roll:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:15 pm 
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jasbar wrote:
Sirius

Why don't you do us all a favour and precis this?

I'm also kinda interested in how you manage to come up with this verbage.


Eh!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:23 pm 
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Sirius wrote:

Quote:
So it's about revenge then, revenge on the drivers who you see as servile idiots


Drivers and Owners :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:26 pm 
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You know Sirius I sit here trying to think of a reason why I should not bring this trade to its knees and I just can't think of one.

:wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:26 pm 
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Skull wrote:
Sirius wrote:

Quote:
So it's about revenge then, revenge on the drivers who you see as servile idiots


Drivers and Owners :wink:



What a lovely person you are, no really you are :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:27 pm 
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Location: Edinburgh
Quote:
Quote:
After a period of adjustment, I reckon we'd win through.


More questions jim

How long would the period of adjustment be, weeks, months, years ?

What price would taxi drivers pay during the period of adjustment ?

Why only reckon, why not guarantee we'd win through ?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:28 pm 
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Sirius wrote:
Skull wrote:
Sirius wrote:

Quote:
So it's about revenge then, revenge on the drivers who you see as servile idiots


Drivers and Owners :wink:



What a lovely person you are, no really you are :lol:



You've noticed I'm glad. :wink:

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All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.
George Orwell, "Animal Farm"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:31 pm 
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Ross wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
After a period of adjustment, I reckon we'd win through.


More questions jim

How long would the period of adjustment be, weeks, months, years ?

What price would taxi drivers pay during the period of adjustment ?

Why only reckon, why not guarantee we'd win through ?



No adjustment for you my bonny lad you will be swept away. :wink:

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George Orwell, "Animal Farm"


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