Taxi Driver Online :: View topic - Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours work

Many of us sit for hours in our Cab.

Either waiting for that elusive Phone Call or gradually making our way to the front of the Rank.

Some, however, sit at home watching the Telly until that Phone rings, or cruise the 'Mean Streets'.

Are they both working?

How do you really measure it?

Disagree. IMO any time given up to the job is working. If it means you can't go to the footy with the kids, or the pub with your mates, it's work.
Most of us are the operators of a taxi or PH business and as such we do many things which don't seem to make us money at the time, but they are important to the business. e.g. Applying for contracts, renewing the insurance, waiting for work, washing the motor, going to the bank etc etc
The fact you don't get paid to do it is irrelevant.
Perhaps the question should be "will you lose money if you don't do it?" and if the answer is yes, it's work.

gusmac wrote:

So if the EU was to limit your working week to say 48 hours and for arguments sake you carried out weekly on average as a self employed PH the following:

3 Hours of doing the accounts
4 Hours of Cleaning the Car
1 Hour taking and making business related Phone calls
1 Hour of vehicle maintenance
1 hours Sitting about Twiddling your thumbs as you wait for clients to stagger out of the pub.

30 Hours spent at home awaiting a phone call, Text, or Email regarding work as People can phone at any time of day or night, which technically implies your still on call to take these calls.

All that Equals 40 Hours "worked" before you even turn a wheel, which leaves you only 8 hours of work left and of that 4 hours may well be Traveling empty.

And that means you have carried out only 4 hours of Paid work in a week.

Would you still think that that would be accebtable?

How do you really measure it?

gusmac wrote:

So if the EU was to limit your working week to say 48 hours and for arguments sake you carried out weekly on average as a self employed PH the following:

3 Hours of doing the accounts
4 Hours of Cleaning the Car
1 Hour taking and making business related Phone calls
1 Hour of vehicle maintenance
1 hours Sitting about Twiddling your thumbs as you wait for clients to stagger out of the pub.
30 Hours spent at home awaiting a phone call, Text, or Email regarding work as People can phone at any time of day or night, which technically implies your still on call to take these calls.

All that Equals 40 Hours "worked" before you even turn a wheel, which leaves you only 8 hours of work left and of that 4 hours may well be Traveling empty.

And that means you have carried out only 4 hours of Paid work in a week.

Would you still think that that would be accebtable?

Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours work

bloodnock wrote:

gusmac wrote:

So if the EU was to limit your working week to say 48 hours and for arguments sake you carried out weekly on average as a self employed PH the following:

3 Hours of doing the accounts
4 Hours of Cleaning the Car
1 Hour taking and making business related Phone calls
1 Hour of vehicle maintenance
1 hours Sitting about Twiddling your thumbs as you wait for clients to stagger out of the pub.
30 Hours spent at home awaiting a phone call, Text, or Email regarding work as People can phone at any time of day or night, which technically implies your still on call to take these calls.

All that Equals 40 Hours "worked" before you even turn a wheel, which leaves you only 8 hours of work left and of that 4 hours may well be Traveling empty.

And that means you have carried out only 4 hours of Paid work in a week.

Would you still think that that would be accebtable?

I'd take issue with your arithmetic for starters
All of the first 5 can be done while your doing the sixth one.

More to the point, should you need to employ someone, for whatever reason, how many of these things would you expect them to do gratis?

Author:	wee eddie [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:06 am ]
Post subject:	Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours work
Many of us sit for hours in our Cab. Either waiting for that elusive Phone Call or gradually making our way to the front of the Rank. Some, however, sit at home watching the Telly until that Phone rings, or cruise the 'Mean Streets'. Are they both working? How do you really measure it?

Author:	cabby john [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours
wee eddie wrote: Many of us sit for hours in our Cab. Either waiting for that elusive Phone Call or gradually making our way to the front of the Rank. Some, however, sit at home watching the Telly until that Phone rings, or cruise the 'Mean Streets'. Are they both working? How do you really measure it? If it stops you doing whatever you rather/want to be doing - then it is work. To put it finely - if you for instance cannot guarantee to yourself that you will see the end of your T.V programme, then you are basically on call out - if you are on call out then you would be in another job getting paid as you are restricted..............unfortunately you would have all the trappings of that....................except the paid bit

Author:	toots [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours
Sitting anywhere for 12 hours a day is bad for you, simples

Author:	gusmac [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours
wee eddie wrote: Many of us sit for hours in our Cab. Either waiting for that elusive Phone Call or gradually making our way to the front of the Rank. Some, however, sit at home watching the Telly until that Phone rings, or cruise the 'Mean Streets'. Are they both working? Yes.

Author:	bloodnock [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours
Depends.. I'd class work as being paid in employment, if your being paid for sitting about then your working, but if your self Employed and sitting on a rank as a hack and not earning then your not working..your waiting for work to arrive by way of clients. Or If your at home as a PH waiting for the phone to ring, watching telly or reading the combined creative work's of Fact and Fiction on TDO then your definitely not working. But for all Intents and purposes I'd reckon work was time spent driving or preparing a vehicle in readiness for work.

Taxi Driver Online http://www.taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/

Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours work http://www.taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19963	Page 1 of 2

Author:	gusmac [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours
Disagree. IMO any time given up to the job is working. If it means you can't go to the footy with the kids, or the pub with your mates, it's work. Most of us are the operators of a taxi or PH business and as such we do many things which don't seem to make us money at the time, but they are important to the business. e.g. Applying for contracts, renewing the insurance, waiting for work, washing the motor, going to the bank etc etc The fact you don't get paid to do it is irrelevant. Perhaps the question should be "will you lose money if you don't do it?" and if the answer is yes, it's work.

Author:	trotskys twin [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours
gusmac wrote: Disagree. IMO any time given up to the job is working. If it means you can't go to the footy with the kids, or the pub with your mates, it's work. Most of us are the operators of a taxi or PH business and as such we do many things which don't seem to make us money at the time, but they are important to the business. e.g. Applying for contracts, renewing the insurance, waiting for work, washing the motor, going to the bank etc etc The fact you don't get paid to do it is irrelevant. Perhaps the question should be "will you lose money if you don't do it?" and if the answer is yes, it's work. Agreed !

Author:	bloodnock [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours
gusmac wrote: Disagree. IMO any time given up to the job is working. If it means you can't go to the footy with the kids, or the pub with your mates, it's work. Most of us are the operators of a taxi or PH business and as such we do many things which don't seem to make us money at the time, but they are important to the business. e.g. Applying for contracts, renewing the insurance, waiting for work, washing the motor, going to the bank etc etc The fact you don't get paid to do it is irrelevant. Perhaps the question should be "will you lose money if you don't do it?" and if the answer is yes, it's work. So if the EU was to limit your working week to say 48 hours and for arguments sake you carried out weekly on average as a self employed PH the following: 3 Hours of doing the accounts 4 Hours of Cleaning the Car 1 Hour taking and making business related Phone calls 1 Hour of vehicle maintenance 1 hours Sitting about Twiddling your thumbs as you wait for clients to stagger out of the pub. 30 Hours spent at home awaiting a phone call, Text, or Email regarding work as People can phone at any time of day or night, which technically implies your still on call to take these calls. All that Equals 40 Hours "worked" before you even turn a wheel, which leaves you only 8 hours of work left and of that 4 hours may well be Traveling empty. And that means you have carried out only 4 hours of Paid work in a week. Would you still think that that would be accebtable?

Author:	trotskys twin [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours
bloodnock wrote: gusmac wrote: Disagree. IMO any time given up to the job is working. If it means you can't go to the footy with the kids, or the pub with your mates, it's work. Most of us are the operators of a taxi or PH business and as such we do many things which don't seem to make us money at the time, but they are important to the business. e.g. Applying for contracts, renewing the insurance, waiting for work, washing the motor, going to the bank etc etc The fact you don't get paid to do it is irrelevant. Perhaps the question should be "will you lose money if you don't do it?" and if the answer is yes, it's work. So if the EU was to limit your working week to say 48 hours and for arguments sake you carried out weekly on average as a self employed PH the following: 3 Hours of doing the accounts 4 Hours of Cleaning the Car 1 Hour taking and making business related Phone calls 1 Hour of vehicle maintenance 1 hours Sitting about Twiddling your thumbs as you wait for clients to stagger out of the pub. 30 Hours spent at home awaiting a phone call, Text, or Email regarding work as People can phone at any time of day or night, which technically implies your still on call to take these calls. All that Equals 40 Hours "worked" before you even turn a wheel, which leaves you only 8 hours of work left and of that 4 hours may well be Traveling empty. And that means you have carried out only 4 hours of Paid work in a week. Would you still think that that would be accebtable? Yes absolutely why should you be allowed to put people at risk through tiredness which is more dangerous than drunkeness, jasus yer thick

Author:	cabby john [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours
To put it even more finely.....................work is work regardless of whether you are paid or not. Any "time" that you put into your job, that stops you doing "your thing", is work related, and is not necessarily "paid work".

Author:	Sussex [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours
wee eddie wrote: How do you really measure it? If you are driving to a job, or with a job, that's working time. If you are waiting for a job then that doesn't necessarily mean working time. I think the Euro Courts decided over a Polish man on the Russian border. He drove a HGV and the issue was over the time he spent, in his HGV, waiting to get through the border. But I can't remember much more about it. Practically that would have to be the case else if the Working Time Directive came in we would have to treble our fares to make any money. But then again we have employed drivers in the trade, so maybe if they can do it one wonders why the rest can't. Not sure it a genie's bottle we need to rub.

Author:	roythebus [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours
"Work" for drivers has been clearly set out in the PSV and HGV Drivers Hours Regulations. From memory, being "on duty" is different to "work". A bus driver could clock on at 0600, 15 minutes to sign on, get ticket machine etc. then sit spare in the canteen for 8 hours. He can then do 6 hours driving with a 45 minute break to end a shift, but he has only "worked" for the sign-on time, the driving time, and the sign off time, even though he's been paid through for 14 and a quarter hours! Similarly, a lorry driver sits around while his lorry is unloaded is not "working" but is on duty. It's complicated. I haven't seen any case law yet, but no doubt like buses, 2 will come along soon! That is the law the EU are trying to get through or cab drivers. Remember, time in other jobs also counts as "work", so if you're a teacher and do an 8 hour day 5 days a week, you could only drive a cab up to the limit set by the working time directive.

Author:	gusmac [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours
bloodnock wrote: gusmac wrote: Disagree. IMO any time given up to the job is working. If it means you can't go to the footy with the kids, or the pub with your mates, it's work. Most of us are the operators of a taxi or PH business and as such we do many things which don't seem to make us money at the time, but they are important to the business. e.g. Applying for contracts, renewing the insurance, waiting for work, washing the motor, going to the bank etc etc The fact you don't get paid to do it is irrelevant. Perhaps the question should be "will you lose money if you don't do it?" and if the answer is yes, it's work. So if the EU was to limit your working week to say 48 hours and for arguments sake you carried out weekly on average as a self employed PH the following: 3 Hours of doing the accounts 4 Hours of Cleaning the Car 1 Hour taking and making business related Phone calls 1 Hour of vehicle maintenance 1 hours Sitting about Twiddling your thumbs as you wait for clients to stagger out of the pub. 30 Hours spent at home awaiting a phone call, Text, or Email regarding work as People can phone at any time of day or night, which technically implies your still on call to take these calls. All that Equals 40 Hours "worked" before you even turn a wheel, which leaves you only 8 hours of work left and of that 4 hours may well be Traveling empty. And that means you have carried out only 4 hours of Paid work in a week. Would you still think that that would be accebtable? I'd take issue with your arithmetic for starters All of the first 5 can be done while your doing the sixth one. More to the point, should you need to employ someone, for whatever reason, how many of these things would you expect them to do gratis?

Author:	captain cab [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours
Quote: Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours work Yes

Page 1 of 2	All times are UTC [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/

Author:	bloodnock [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Does sitting in a car for 12 hours, constitute 12 hours
gusmac wrote: bloodnock wrote: gusmac wrote: Disagree. IMO any time given up to the job is working. If it means you can't go to the footy with the kids, or the pub with your mates, it's work. Most of us are the operators of a taxi or PH business and as such we do many things which don't seem to make us money at the time, but they are important to the business. e.g. Applying for contracts, renewing the insurance, waiting for work, washing the motor, going to the bank etc etc The fact you don't get paid to do it is irrelevant. Perhaps the question should be "will you lose money if you don't do it?" and if the answer is yes, it's work. So if the EU was to limit your working week to say 48 hours and for arguments sake you carried out weekly on average as a self employed PH the following: 3 Hours of doing the accounts 4 Hours of Cleaning the Car 1 Hour taking and making business related Phone calls 1 Hour of vehicle maintenance 1 hours Sitting about Twiddling your thumbs as you wait for clients to stagger out of the pub. 30 Hours spent at home awaiting a phone call, Text, or Email regarding work as People can phone at any time of day or night, which technically implies your still on call to take these calls. All that Equals 40 Hours "worked" before you even turn a wheel, which leaves you only 8 hours of work left and of that 4 hours may well be Traveling empty. And that means you have carried out only 4 hours of Paid work in a week. Would you still think that that would be accebtable? I'd take issue with your arithmetic for starters All of the first 5 can be done while your doing the sixth one. More to the point, should you need to employ someone, for whatever reason, how many of these things would you expect them to do gratis? Ok..lets do the other stuff during those hours, but as an owner/driver I'm still not earning unless I'm carrying passengers and If not earning I'm not getting paid and if I'm not getting paid I'm bloody well not working.. I would not expect anyone to work for nothing on my behalf, But I frequently work for a damned sight less per hour than a genuine Employee (not a percentage of take driver) on Minimum wage would get. I'd also never ever want to employ anyone to work for me as they as an employee would have more rights than me, more paid Holidays than me, more sick pay entitlement than me, certainly more maternity rights than me, Id be expected to pay into their pension pots, I'd have to have Employers liability Insurance to cover them and all that would add another 10 unpaid hours per week to my Initial (corrected by Gusmac) 20 non driving hours a week, which would bump it back up to 30 hours. In my position It's cheaper to turn the little bit of surplus work I cant handle away or pass it on than it would be to accept it and employ someone to cover it.