this Uber ruling cant apply to owners drivers, just drivers?
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| Author: | edders23 [ Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | definitions of self employment/Employment |
Following on from the Uber thread there are some issues here that need clarifying in my mind at least. If you were a shopkeeper you might buy 70 to 80 percent of your goods for sale from a wholesaler for resale. A hackney driver on a circuit might accept 70 to 80 percent of their work via the circuit and the rest off flag downs and the ranks effectively selling their services to the client but using a "wholesaler" to aggregate and supply the bookings. If that driver is paying the "wholesaler" an amount for the booking and then charging the customer/client the full fare their margin or gross profit is the difference,they have their own "premises" i.e. their vehicle they pay the bills so why wouldn't that be self employment ? |
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| Author: | MR T [ Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: definitions of self employment/Employment |
edders23 wrote: Following on from the Uber thread there are some issues here that need clarifying in my mind at least. If you were a shopkeeper you might buy 70 to 80 percent of your goods for sale from a wholesaler for resale. A hackney driver on a circuit might accept 70 to 80 percent of their work via the circuit and the rest off flag downs and the ranks effectively selling their services to the client but using a "wholesaler" to aggregate and supply the bookings. If that driver is paying the "wholesaler" an amount for the booking and then charging the customer/client the full fare their margin or gross profit is the difference,they have their own "premises" i.e. their vehicle they pay the bills so why wouldn't that be self employment ? You would be better off making the comparison between a self-employed bricklayer working for a company. |
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| Author: | edders23 [ Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: definitions of self employment/Employment |
surely a bricklayer moves from company to company depending on who has a job on requiring his skills I think the shop comparison is nearer The point is that many people are claiming that the situation for a hackney driver working on a circuit is the same as an uber driver and i cannot see why that would be to me they are not the same |
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| Author: | wannabeeahack [ Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: definitions of self employment/Employment |
this Uber ruling cant apply to owners drivers, just drivers?
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| Author: | blacktaxi [ Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: definitions of self employment/Employment |
The decision made at the ruling yesterday centred on the conditions that uber imposed on the drivers, how many jobs you must take, hours worked, what route you must take and about 10 more, if you look at the judgement, you will see and understand why the tribunal came to this decision |
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| Author: | wannabeeahack [ Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: definitions of self employment/Employment |
Checking if they’re exempt from PAYE Someone is probably self-employed and shouldn’t be paid through PAYE if most of the following are true: they’re in business for themselves, are responsible for the success or failure of their business and can make a loss or a profit they can decide what work they do and when, where or how to do it they can hire someone else to do the work they’re responsible for fixing any unsatisfactory work in their own time their employer agrees a fixed price for their work - it doesn’t depend on how long the job takes to finish they use their own money to buy business assets, cover running costs, and provide tools and equipment for their work they can work for more than one client |
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| Author: | wannabeeahack [ Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: definitions of self employment/Employment |
blacktaxi wrote: The decision made at the ruling yesterday centred on the conditions that uber imposed on the drivers, how many jobs you must take, hours worked, what route you must take and about 10 more, if you look at the judgement, you will see and understand why the tribunal came to this decision Uber can fine tune their business model to comply |
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| Author: | captain cab [ Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: definitions of self employment/Employment |
blacktaxi wrote: The decision made at the ruling yesterday centred on the conditions that uber imposed on the drivers, how many jobs you must take, hours worked, what route you must take and about 10 more, if you look at the judgement, you will see and understand why the tribunal came to this decision good post - perhaps our posters here should read the judgement as opposed to speculating because they cant be arsed to read it. |
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| Author: | edders23 [ Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: definitions of self employment/Employment |
captain cab wrote: blacktaxi wrote: The decision made at the ruling yesterday centred on the conditions that uber imposed on the drivers, how many jobs you must take, hours worked, what route you must take and about 10 more, if you look at the judgement, you will see and understand why the tribunal came to this decision good post - perhaps our posters here should read the judgement as opposed to speculating because they cant be arsed to read it. My Opening post was a general discussion about what is or isn't self employment not about Uber but as always threads are hijacked |
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| Author: | MR T [ Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: definitions of self employment/Employment |
wannabeeahack wrote: Checking if they’re exempt from PAYE Someone is probably self-employed and shouldn’t be paid through PAYE if most of the following are true: they’re in business for themselves, are responsible for the success or failure of their business and can make a loss or a profit they can decide what work they do and when, where or how to do it they can hire someone else to do the work they’re responsible for fixing any unsatisfactory work in their own time their employer agrees a fixed price for their work - it doesn’t depend on how long the job takes to finish they use their own money to buy business assets, cover running costs, and provide tools and equipment for their work they can work for more than one client self-employed bricklayer working for a company. _________________ |
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| Author: | trotskys twin [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: definitions of self employment/Employment |
edders23 wrote: Following on from the Uber thread there are some issues here that need clarifying in my mind at least. If you were a shopkeeper you might buy 70 to 80 percent of your goods for sale from a wholesaler for resale. A hackney driver on a circuit might accept 70 to 80 percent of their work via the circuit and the rest off flag downs and the ranks effectively selling their services to the client but using a "wholesaler" to aggregate and supply the bookings. If that driver is paying the "wholesaler" an amount for the booking and then charging the customer/client the full fare their margin or gross profit is the difference,they have their own "premises" i.e. their vehicle they pay the bills so why wouldn't that be self employment ? Edders as usual you have left out the 3rd definition IE "worker under the direction of the company" rendering the above post irrelevant in the real world! It strikes me your clutching at straws regarding YOUR current practices within YOUR company. |
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| Author: | trotskys twin [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: definitions of self employment/Employment |
captain cab wrote: blacktaxi wrote: The decision made at the ruling yesterday centred on the conditions that uber imposed on the drivers, how many jobs you must take, hours worked, what route you must take and about 10 more, if you look at the judgement, you will see and understand why the tribunal came to this decision good post - perhaps our posters here should read the judgement as opposed to speculating because they cant be arsed to read it.[/quote] It might be useful to read the comments by Maria Ludkin GMB National legal officer who oversaw this case? |
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| Author: | wannabeeahack [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: definitions of self employment/Employment |
trotskys twin wrote: It might be useful to read the comments by Maria Ludkin GMB National legal officer who oversaw this case? assuming they can read Uber is the tip of the iceberg, greedy base bosses who already recruit outside plated cars then complain about Uber are a joke |
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| Author: | edders23 [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: definitions of self employment/Employment |
"worker under the direction of the company" a self employed bricklayer is under the direction of the company as is say a plumber working under contract or a hairdresser renting a chair or a photocopier repairman called in to fix a machine whilst he is on the premises he is under the direction of the company |
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| Author: | Sussex [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: definitions of self employment/Employment |
edders23 wrote: a self employed bricklayer is under the direction of the company as is say a plumber working under contract or a hairdresser renting a chair or a photocopier repairman called in to fix a machine whilst he is on the premises he is under the direction of the company Depends on the circumstances. Read section 92 of the judgement and see if they really are self-employed, and see how many taxi/PH drivers are really self employed. 92 Sixth, we agree with Mr Linden that it is not real to regard Uber as working 'for' the drivers and that the only sensible interpretation is that the relationship is the other way around. Uber runs a transportation business, The drivers provide the skilled labour through which the organisation delivers its services and earns its profits. We base our assessment on the facts and analysis already set out and in particular on the following considerations. (1) The contradiction in the Rider Terms between the fact that ULL purports to be the drivers' agent and its assertion of "sole and absolute discretion" to accept or decline bookings. (2) The fact that Uber interviews and recruits drivers. (3) The fact that Uber controls the key information (in particular the passenger's surname, contact details and intended destination) and excludes the driver from it. (4) The fact that Uber requires drivers to accept trips and/or not to cancel trips, and enforces the requirement by logging off drivers who breach those requirements. (5) The fact that Uber sets the (default) route and the driver departs from it at his peril. (6) The fact that UBV fixes the fare and the driver cannot agree a higher sum with the passenger. (The supposed freedom to agree a lower fare is obviously nugatory.) (7) The fact that Uber imposes numerous conditions on drivers (such as the limited choice of acceptable vehicles), instructs drivers as to how to do their work and, in numerous ways, controls them in the performance of their duties. (8) The fact that Uber subjects drivers through the rating system to what amounts to a performance management/disciplinary procedure. (9) The fact that Uber determines issues about rebates, sometimes without even involving the driver whose remuneration is liable to be affected. (10) The guaranteed earnings schemes (albeit now discontinued). (11) The fact that Uber accepts the risk of loss which, if the drivers were genuinely in business on their own account, would fall upon them'9 (12) The fact that Uber handles complaints by passengers, including complaints about the drivers (13) The fact that Uber reserves the power to amend the drivers' terms unilaterally. |
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