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what constitutes "the district" http://www.taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34023 |
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Author: | Sussex [ Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: what constitutes "the district" |
Quote: Are there examples of tariff cards which show a substantial booking fee that would justify being hiked several miles? London has a £2 booking fee. |
Author: | mancityfan [ Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:41 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: what constitutes "the district" |
Sussex wrote: Quote: Are there examples of tariff cards which show a substantial booking fee that would justify being hiked several miles? London has a £2 booking fee. Tariff 1 HACKNEY CARRIAGE TABLE OF FARES Applicable from 12 noon 1st September 2017 For hirings commenced between 07.01 and 23.59 If the distance does not exceed 660 yards for the whole distance: £2.60 For each of the subsequent 310 yards or uncompleted part thereof: 30p Waiting Time: For each period of 40 seconds or uncompleted part thereof 10p Tariff 2 Tariff 3 For hirings commenced between midnight and 07.00 For hirings commenced between 19.00 and midnight on the 24th December For hirings commenced between 19.00 and midnight on the 31st December For hirings commencing on any Bank Holiday or Public Holiday If the distance does not exceed 660 yards for the whole distance: £3.80 For each subsequent 220 yards or uncompleted part thereof: 30p Waiting time: For each period of 40 seconds or uncompleted part thereof 10p For hirings commenced between 00.01 25th December and 07.00 27th December For hirings commenced between 00.01 1st January and 07.00 2nd January If the distance does not exceed 880 yards for the whole distance: £5.00 For each subsequent 220 yards or uncompleted part thereof: 40p Waiting time: For each period of 40 seconds or uncompleted part thereof 10p For each passenger in excess of one [for the purpose two children aged 11 or under to count as one passenger for the whole distance] 20p For each perambulator or article of luggage carried outside the passenger compartment of the vehicle 20p Soiling Charge: A charge may be requested if the passenger[s] soils the vehicle. This will not exceed £75.00 The driver may at his/her discretion require the payment of an agreed amount in advance of the journey. A receipt will be given. The amount will be set against the metered fare. A booking fee up to a maximum of £4.00 may be charged where: (a) (b) The Hackney carriage is booked in advance; and (i) The Customer shall be told the cost of the booking fee at the time that the booking is taken and the amount recorded in the booking log; and (ii) The customer shall be told that the booking fee is in addition to the fare for the journey; and The hiring involves a separate journey of at least one mile, starting from the taxi rank or the operator’s premises, to the pick up point. (c) Any complaints regarding the vehicle and/or driver should be addressed to the Licensing Section, Environmental Services, Town Hall, Dalton Square, Lancaster, LA1 1PJ. Telephone [01524] 582033. Email licensing@lancaster.gov.uk |
Author: | mancityfan [ Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:54 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: what constitutes "the district" |
In 2011. Of the 337 authorities surveyed, 44 expressly regulated booking fees capping them between £20 at Alnwick DC down to 20p in Brighton and Hove for a telephone booking. Other authorities allow a booking fee that varies depending how far from the rank the taxi was at the time of the booking; others also require the passenger to be informed or for there to be an agreement to charge such fee; others allow a charge per mile up to a maximum distance from the passenger. Only two authorities expressly prohibit booking fees. The London Cab Order 1934 caps telephone booking fees at £2.00. |
Author: | mancityfan [ Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:06 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: what constitutes "the district" |
East Lindsey For each mile, or uncompleted part thereof, to a maximum distance of 15 miles, 50p travelled by the carriage to a hirer “pick up” point at a stated place other than a hackney carriage stand or the proprietor’s normal base of operation. The customer must be told the amount of the booking fee at the time of booking. |
Author: | StuartW [ Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:30 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: what constitutes "the district" |
Good find from MCF about the survey there, which is part of the Law Commission's 2014 report, from the section on booking fees. Have copied the relevant section in full below, which might contain information relevant to the thread. Have tried to format it so that it looks as much as possible like the original. But watch out for the footnote numbers, which are normally supposed to be slightly higher than the text (superscript), but you can't do that on here, so they're just included as normal text, although slightly smaller. (If that doesn't make sense then it might make a bit more sense if you actually read the thing.) Also, the reason the footnotes aren't all together is because I've just left them in the same position as they appear in the original document, so they correspond to the bottom of the page. (Kind of thing I wish I hadn't bothered with now - would have been easier just to include link to original document rather than fannying about with all the formatting etc. But seemed like good idea at the time ) |
Author: | StuartW [ Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:31 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: what constitutes "the district" |
RE-BOOKED TAXI FARES AND BOOKING FEES 9.20 In our consultation paper, we asked whether taxi drivers should be allowed to charge more than the metered fare for pre-booked journeys on the same basis as private hire vehicles, whose prices are unregulated.15 15 Reforming the Law of Taxi and Private Hire Services (2012) Law Commission Consultation Paper No 203, question 44. 9.21 In England and Wales, including London, licensing authorities have very broad powers to regulate all charges in connection with the hire of a taxi or with the arrangements for the hire.16 Pre-booked taxi journeys are regulated on the same basis as hail and rank journeys. Case law has confirmed that fare regulation and overcharging offences also cover how much can be charged as a booking fee.17 This is significant because it means that it is unlawful to charge a booking fee unless the relevant licensing authority has expressly authorised it; or to charge any more than the licensing authority has allowed.18 9.22 Booking fees have gained additional significance with the increased market presence of smartphone apps being used to arrange taxi services. The pricing models of these new apps often do not fit clearly within the current regulated fare structure.19 For example, at the time of writing, the London Cab Order refers to a maximum booking fee for “telephone bookings” but is silent on internet bookings.20 Transport for London has decided to extend its £2.00 telephone booking surcharge to cover bookings made using mobile phones, smartphones apps and online services in its annual revision of taxi fares and tariffs for 2014/2015.21 9.23 There are also some significant differences between the overcharging offences in London compared to the rest of England and Wales. In London, “every driver of a hackney carriage who shall demand or take more than the proper fare” (which covers any payment in relation to the hire, therefore including booking fees) commits an offence. The absence in London of an overcharging offence by intermediaries means that payments in excess of the permitted maximum paid directly to smartphone apps, for example, could not be prosecuted; however, payments to drivers clearly could be. 16 Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, s 65 for England and Wales; and London Cab and Stage Carriage Act 1907, s 1 for London. Only journeys ending beyond the licensing areas fall outside the scope of regulation. 17 See House v Reynolds [1977] WLR 88 and, for London, Bassam v Green [1981] RTR 362. 18 The treatment of booking fees varies across licensing authorities. For England and Wales, outside London, we have used data compiled by the National Private Hire Association in 2011. Of the 337 authorities surveyed, 44 expressly regulated booking fees capping them between £20 at Alnwick DC down to 20p in Brighton and Hove for a telephone booking. Other authorities allow a booking fee that varies depending how far from the rank the taxi was at the time of the booking; others also require the passenger to be informed or for there to be an agreement to charge such fee; others allow a charge per mile up to a maximum distance from the passenger. Only two authorities expressly prohibit booking fees. The London Cab Order 1934 caps telephone booking fees at £2.00. 19 See, for example, Hailo’s minimum fare requirement: https://hailocab.com/blog/2014/0 1/03/Minimum-fares-reduced-by-20%25 (last visited 19 May 2014). 20 London Cab Order 1934, para 40(4)(b). 21 http://www.tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/201 4/february/tfl-board-agreeslowest-taxi-fares-rise-in-more-than-10-years (last visited 19 May 2014) 9.24 By contrast, outside London, any person charging a “rate of fares or charges” greater than the maximum allowed by the licensing authority can be prosecuted.22 Both drivers and smartphone apps are therefore prohibited from receiving payments beyond the regulated amounts. Consultation 9.25 Most stakeholders disagreed with removing price controls on pre-booked taxi journeys, though a significant number agreed. Those who disagreed felt that pricing freedom would be open to abuse and that customers deserved the security of metered payment. However, some argued that in this capacity taxis were no different from private hire vehicles and should have the same market advantages. 9.26 The National Association of Licensing Enforcement Officers disagreed with our suggestion, arguing that:
compete with a market force driven service like private hire they should not then be on time and distance calculation but should be on distance only like the majority of private hire services nationwide. 9.27 One Institute of Licensing member took a similar view, recommending permitting booking fees but no more. The member also suggested that these should be displayed on the tariff card rather than simply added at the end of the journey. 9.28 Even where stakeholders agreed, many felt there should be limitations. For example, the National Taxi Association felt that any additional charge should only cover dead mileage. Transport for London suggested that only companies approved by Transport for London (and presumably other licensing authorities) should have the ability to charge unregulated fares, and that they should be subject to the following stringent requirements:
(2) keeping, in accordance with appropriate processes, a record of all bookings, including passenger details, date of booking, date of journey, destination, fare charged, and the driver and vehicle used, for a minimum of six months; (3) being a limited company or registered/friendly society; (4) having structures in place to check the licence status of participating drivers, the vehicles they use and to ensure that any restrictions on plying for hire are complied with; and (5) dealing with complaints. 22 Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, s 67(2). Owners are also liable to a penalty outside London, although the scope of their liability is not exactly the same as that of the drivers. Proprietors can be prosecuted if the demand relates to an excessive fare, but only in respect of amounts charged “as a fare” rather than payments made in respect of collateral agreements. By contrast, proprietors in London are not liable for overcharging offences. 9.29 Welsh local authorities, in their joint response, felt that charging above the metered fare should only be allowed where agreed in advance. The GMB agreed with this suggestion. The United Cabbies Group felt that:
regulated pre-booked fares whilst private hire vehicles use unregulated pre-booked fares. 9.30 As we noted above, since the close of consultation, regulators and stakeholders have highlighted the problems of extra charges by smartphone apps. Trade representatives worried that taxi drivers might unwittingly be committing overcharging offences if they requested payment in respect of internet booking fees that had not been authorised by their local licensing authority. Discussion 9.31 We accept that any departure from the maximum price allowed by a meter or fare table could undermine the protections which price controls are intended to provide in taxi regulation. Any modification of this position needs both to have a strong justification and to be tightly framed. 9.32 The justifications for imposing both quality standards and fare regulation on taxis relate to problems of inequalities of bargaining power in the way rank and hail markets work. Unlike quality standards, price controls can be journey-specific and are capable of being lifted in respect of (competitive) pre-booked work. However, we accept stakeholders’ concerns regarding the severe difficulties this could give rise to as a matter of enforcement. Moreover, it could undermine compellability, and provide scope for abuse of vulnerable customers if passengers who for practical reasons need to pre-book could be required to pay above the regulated fare for a journey within the compellable distance. 9.33 In light of the above, we think that it would not be practicable to de-regulate completely the fares charged by taxis working on a pre-booked basis. To do so would be too disruptive of the two tier system, and would undermine the important differences which mark the way taxis are regulated compared to private hire services. 9.34 As regards journeys commencing in the licensing area but ending beyond the compellable distance, we have already recommended that departure from the metered fare must be the subject of agreement in advance. We consider that that must equally be the case when the journey is pre-booked. 9.35 Taxi journeys commencing outside the licensing area (which, to be lawful, must be pre-booked) are not currently subject to fare regulation. We do not propose disturbing that position. We recommend, however, that taxi drivers be under a duty, broadly corresponding to that of private hire operators, to state a price or a price estimate on request and to make a record of any such price information given. Booking charges 9.36 The regulation of pre-booked taxi charges creates an imbalance of regulation between taxis and private hire vehicles in a market where they are both competing for the same work, potentially placing taxis at a disadvantage. We have therefore considered whether aspects of taxi charging for pre-booked journeys, and in particular booking charges collected by or on behalf of a third party intermediary, might be de-regulated without undermining the two tier system and the important consumer protections which fare controls provide. We were particularly concerned with finding a proper place for smartphone apps within the pricing structure for taxi journeys. 9.37 Unlike other “extra” charges relating to the hire (which may relate to things such as excess baggage, soiling charges or road tolls for example), fees charged to customers for finding them an available taxi are an aspect of a more competitive market being opened up by the new technology. We consider that there are strong consumer benefits in allowing third party arrangement fees to be outside fare regulation, opening up competition within the taxi market and with private hire services. 9.38 The draft Bill provides that third party arrangement fees will only be unregulated if agreed in advance;23 this only applies to fees agreed with third parties: fees charged by taxi drivers for taking bookings will continue to be capable of being regulated, so as to avoid the risks of abuse or evidential difficulties that could arise if drivers were allowed to take elements of remuneration for themselves that were unregulated. 9.39 Booking fees received by intermediaries directly from the passenger (such as where the user of an app pays by credit card) ought not to give rise to problems of distinguishing them from unlawful additions to the regulated fare. We recommend that they be unregulated. 9.40 Indeed, a number of licensing authorities already allow third party arrangement fees to be charged provided they are agreed with the customer in advance.24 As is already the position outside London, the new overcharging offence in our draft Bill can be committed by any person that demands more than the proper charge, and not just the driver.25 9.41 We have also considered whether taxi drivers should be permitted to collect unregulated booking charges on behalf of intermediaries, an arrangement that can be convenient to the passenger who prefers to make one payment at the conclusion of the journey. We have concluded that they should. 23 Draft Taxis and Private Hire Vehicles Bill clause 31(8) and (9). 24 We noted such requirements in Sunderland, Berwick-upon-Tweed, North Norfolk and Elmbridge for example. 25 Draft Taxis and Private Hire Vehicles Bill, clause 32(5). 9.42 As with other unregulated booking fees charged by intermediaries, those that are to be collected by the driver on behalf of the intermediary will have to have been agreed in advance between the intermediary and the passenger, who will be in a position to know whether the amount subsequently demanded by the driver corresponds to what was agreed. The intermediary can be expected to have made a record of the booking and to have an interest in collecting payment of the booking fee from the driver. We do not rule out the possibility of abuse, particularly where bookings are accepted by telephone, but we do not consider that the risk of it is sufficiently great to justify regulating booking fees charged by third parties or outlawing this flexible method of collecting them.
We recommend that licensing authorities should retain the power to regulate fares charged for pre-booked taxi journeys. However, there should be no power to regulate third party booking fees, provided these are agreed in advance. 9.43 This recommendation is given effect by clause 31 of our draft Bill. |
Author: | roythebus [ Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:05 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: what constitutes "the district" |
One of the problems where I used to work on Romney Marsh was the vast amount of dead mileage involved. That's one reason there's more PH in the area than HC. As far as I remember there were 38 PH and 2 HC working the marsh. It would be nothing to get a booking enquiry from say Newchurch which is 8 miles from my old base in New Romney to Dymchurch, another 8 miles along country lanes, then 4 miles back along the A259 to get back to base. there was rarely a chance to get another fare from Dymchurch to New Romney that tied in with that sort of trip. People there expected the fare to be about a fiver for a 20 mile round trip for me! One of the reasons I packed it in a few years ago, 50% dead mileage on every job! Mind you, we didn't have meters so always quoted an estimated fare depending on the actual mileage. |
Author: | grandad [ Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:48 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: what constitutes "the district" |
Well, our licensing team say they have sought legal advice and the district can't be changed. So the villages still can't have a taxi service and the buses are being cut. |
Author: | Sussex [ Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:59 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: what constitutes "the district" |
grandad wrote: Well, our licensing team say they have sought legal advice and the district can't be changed. So the villages still can't have a taxi service and the buses are being cut. Did you/they consider the optional booking charge? |
Author: | heathcote [ Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: what constitutes "the district" |
grandad wrote: Well, our licensing team say they have sought legal advice and the district can't be changed. So the villages still can't have a taxi service and the buses are being cut. The first paragraphs of the 1976 Act clearly states what constitutes the district,the definition covers both private hire and TAXI licensing. |
Author: | wannabeeahack [ Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: what constitutes "the district" |
grandad wrote: Well, our licensing team say they have sought legal advice and the district can't be changed. So the villages still can't have a taxi service and the buses are being cut. lifes a 8itch |
Author: | grandad [ Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:59 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: what constitutes "the district" |
Sussex wrote: grandad wrote: Well, our licensing team say they have sought legal advice and the district can't be changed. So the villages still can't have a taxi service and the buses are being cut. Did you/they consider the optional booking charge? On this occasion they were not asked to consider this. |
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