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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 6:32 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
Got mine from Asda for about £15 last week.

Very happy with that. Image



My son did his own hair with electric clippers, a mirror and a roll of duct tape...he's now looking like a mutant cross between Joseph Goebbels and Edmund Blackadder #-o


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 6:34 pm 
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Here’s the kind of statistic to make the toes curl: for every £1 that UK banks lend to small- and medium-sized enterprises in the manufacturing sector, they lend £155 in mortgages. They could quadruple their lending to small manufacturers and it would still be a pimple on the backside of their balance sheets.

That is one interesting stat. Maybe that's why I've never really liked banks.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 12:35 pm 
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bloodnock wrote:
Sussex wrote:
Got mine from Asda for about £15 last week.

Very happy with that. Image



My son did his own hair with electric clippers, a mirror and a roll of duct tape...he's now looking like a mutant cross between Joseph Goebbels and Edmund Blackadder #-o

Duct tape? The mind boggles :shock:

Anyway, picked up this baby in Tesco earlier:

https://www.superdrug.com/Electricals/M ... r/p/132861

Really wanted something cordless (easier if you're DIYing it, and I literally mean *yourself*) and with a No 8 (1 inch) cutter for the top of my head - this one's just got a No 4 (half inch).

But it was just sitting there on the shelf, and was only £11, which is only a pound more than I normally pay for a haircut (£8 + £2 tip).

Don't know how much of a mess I'll make of it, but I suppose now is the best time to take the plunge 8-[


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 1:48 pm 
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I'm not sure it's going to matter one jot, if you mean the limit as 25% of your turnover rather than the £50,000 jackpot.

Indeed, I meant limit as 25% of turnover. Was just wondering whether they'd be more likely to agree to £2,000 rather than £6,000 (say), but obviously you don't think it matters, as long as it's less than 25% of turnover.

But that points to one quirk - I'm an independent HC, but say a PHD paid £150 a week in fees, but just made the same profit as me. Then he'd be eligible to borrow almost an extra £2,000, based on turnover, although no more profitable than me :-o

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I suspect they are a tad miffed as they won't be making much money out of the loans, albeit they have no risk.

I mean who would go to the banks and get a loan at between 5 and 10% when you (hopefully subject to what happens on Monday) will get a loan at 2/3% and the first year at f*** all %.

I think the Government will pay the first year's interest to the banks, but I get what you mean about the whole term of the loan, although it's presumably money the banks wouldn't be earning anyway, and I doubt if the Government is forcing them to take part.

From what I've read it's more about who'll pick up the pieces and get the blame when it all goes belly up (which it's bound to, to a degree at least), and whether there could be reputational damage for the banks and litigation.

But I read that the Government has suspended part of the Consumer Credit Act to deal with it all (although not sure I really understand what that aspect is all about #-o ), but we'll no doubt find out more in the next few days.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 3:20 pm 
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Interesting piece in the Sunday Times today. Main points from it I think:

- interest will be capped at 2.5%

- if you use your own bank then could get money within 24 hours, but longer for other banks. Which makes sense, obviously, but begs question what kind of evidence you need to provide to third-party banks to prove that you're in business in some description or other? Just a two-page online form to complete, apparently, so will be interesting to see what info and proof is required. Otherwise it would be a fraudster's charter.

And I'm thinking it all underlines that it's being done instead of extending the grants scheme - they can get money to people in a day or two instead of waiting another few weeks, and HMG will at least get *some* of it back. Eventually.

But will be lots of people in the banking industry burning the midnight oil tonight, I suspect.


Coronavirus bounce back loan scheme: Treasury stumbles into repeat of CBILS chaos

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coro ... -299hs9f85

Just before 4am on March 23, lawyers at the Treasury were poring over the final terms of one of the government’s flagship rescue plans. Hours later, the coronavirus business interruption loan scheme (CBILS) was open for applications.

Banks accredited to lend were inundated with pleas from business owners, overwhelming staff who had worked flat-out to prepare for the launch. Senior bank executives say last-minute wrangling over terms meant that their teams were not prepared for the onslaught.

It has taken weeks for CBILS to run efficiently, but by last Thursday, more than 25,000 loans had been approved, worth £4.1bn.

Still, thousands of firms have missed out, forcing the government to draw up a bounce back loan scheme (BBLS). Under the plan, banks will offer up to £50,000 with a 100% guarantee from the Treasury, as opposed to 80% underwritten through CBILS. After an interest-free period, the rate on the BBLS will be no more than 2.5%.

Ahead of the BBLS launch tomorrow, history appears to be repeating itself. This weekend, Treasury officials and bank bosses are locked in discussions over the final details, with lenders unwilling to go through the chaos of CBILS again.

Bank bosses have raised the concern that allowing businesses to self-certify their viability — an attempt to speed up the process — will open the system to fraud. Senior executives also fear they will be held personally liable for failing to lend responsibly, which could lead to criminal prosecutions.

Several big banks have developed technology to automate the process, allowing, in theory, successful applicants to receive cash within 24 hours. Those systems are being stress-tested today, ahead of the rush of inquiries expected tomorrow, when the scheme is scheduled to go live at 9am.

“The energy going into getting it ready is certainly there,” said one banker. “I’d be pretty confident it will be ready,” he added, nervously.

For Rishi Sunak, there is a lot riding on BBLS. The chancellor has personally helped to design several of the packages, including the Future Fund for start-ups. He will be held accountable for their success — or otherwise.

There is no doubt that extra support is required for businesses unable to access CBILS, where the average loan size is about £165,000, far higher than many firms need or could afford to repay.

“We know there is huge appetite for these smaller-value loans from across small businesses and sole traders,” said Craig Beaumont, a director at the Federation of Small Businesses. “An amount of up to £50,000 will be the single deciding factor for whether or not a business survives. The stakes could not be higher for 9am tomorrow.”

The loans are designed to be fast-tracked and require the completion of just a two-page online application form, but will not result in a cash free-for-all. The big lenders hope existing customers will receive their cash in as little as 24 hours, but privately admit there will be no quick access for non-customers.

That has raised questions about the accredited lenders, which include high street banks and some alternative lenders. Many fintech start-ups created to distribute funds rapidly to small businesses are not included.

“It’s not clear why they haven’t just given this to fintechs,” said Kirsty McGregor of the Corporate Finance Network. “The banks are absolutely overwhelmed. Why does the Treasury take six weeks to make this decision, then expect lenders to roll it out in six days?”

A significant sticking point this weekend is liability under the senior managers regime, which allows the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) to hold executives personally liable for irresponsible lending. The FCA has provided “clarity” on this for CBILS and has said it will offer “similar clarity” once BBLS is up and running.

“We need a clearer position from the FCA that bankers won’t be criminally prosecuted in the future for being wrong or immoral,” said one executive. “At the moment, under the regime, bankers are criminally liable if we do anything that’s in breach of our responsibilities.

“I’ve got kids. I’m not ready to go to jail.”


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 4:06 pm 
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Will the bounce back loan scheme be for anyone or just registered companies? If it is for registered companies, their account are filed at companies house which will say how much their turnover is and anyone can access that information.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 4:30 pm 
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grandad wrote:
Will the bounce back loan scheme be for anyone or just registered companies? If it is for registered companies, their account are filed at companies house which will say how much their turnover is and anyone can access that information.

Haven't read of any restriction on the type of business entity eligible. A bit like that stuff the other week with Edders and the rates application - nothing to suggest it isn't open to sole-traders and partnerships.

Which indeed is why it looks to me like an alternative to extending the grant scheme for the self-employed (and maybe extending help to some that weren't eligible for the self-employment grants because they've set themselves up as limited companies instead of sole-traders, which has tax advantages, and others who are missing out on the self-employment grants for various reasons).

So I'm guessing those who aren't registered as limited companies (which, as you say, can provide proof of turnover relatively easily) might have to forward copies of any accounts or tax returns to certify their turnover.

But we'll see tomorrow :?


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 5:17 pm 
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Indeed, I meant limit as 25% of turnover. Was just wondering whether they'd be more likely to agree to £2,000 rather than £6,000 (say), but obviously you don't think it matters, as long as it's less than 25% of turnover.

More certain than ever it won't matter. I'm not even sure it will matter if you go for say 40% of your turnover.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 5:19 pm 
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But that points to one quirk - I'm an independent HC, but say a PHD paid £150 a week in fees, but just made the same profit as me. Then he'd be eligible to borrow almost an extra £2,000, based on turnover, although no more profitable than me :-o

But the money one will need to function as a business will be more for a PH on a circuit, rather than a Independent hackney on a rank.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 5:22 pm 
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From what I've read it's more about who'll pick up the pieces and get the blame when it all goes belly up (which it's bound to, to a degree at least), and whether there could be reputational damage for the banks and litigation.

But who's going to prosecute the banks?

Not the BoE who are supporting it, and not the gov whose idea it is?

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 5:37 pm 
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grandad wrote:
Will the bounce back loan scheme be for anyone or just registered companies? If it is for registered companies, their account are filed at companies house which will say how much their turnover is and anyone can access that information.

The BBL scheme is for businesses, not just registered companies.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/apply-for-a ... -back-loan

So it will be based, once again, on your tax returns.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 5:41 pm 
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Looks like those banks involved will be getting the money near to base rates, currently 0.1%.

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media ... 2232437819

So if in future they charge 2.5%, then that's about the margins they have on mortgage rates, possibly a bit more.

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 7:11 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
Quote:
But that points to one quirk - I'm an independent HC, but say a PHD paid £150 a week in fees, but just made the same profit as me. Then he'd be eligible to borrow almost an extra £2,000, based on turnover, although no more profitable than me :-o

But the money one will need to function as a business will be more for a PH on a circuit, rather than a Independent hackney on a rank.

Indeed, but if turnover limit is intended to roughly reflect the ability of the borrower to repay the loan, then if the HC driver and PH driver are equally profitable then obviously the turnover isn't reflecting the relative risks.

Of course, there will be all kinds of quirks and inconsistencies, but I'm surprised they're not basing the loans on profit, thus the same as the grants.

Sussex wrote:
But who's going to prosecute the banks?

Not the BoE who are supporting it, and not the gov whose idea it is?

Not sure how it all works these days, but either the Financial Conduct Authority or the BofE's Prudential Regulation Authority would be doing any prosecuting, I think, as financial/banking regulators. Of course, they're independent of the political aspect of it all, so it should be irrelevant who or what actually supports the scheme, in theory at least.

But that seems to be why they're amending the relevant law so that there can't be prosecutions relating to the scheme, so it's all academic, although obviously there's still some misgivings among the banks.

But it's all very technical stuff, so I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what the application process actually entails.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 11:14 pm 
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If you took out this loan and paid it back in full within the 12 months would that be completely interest free and the end of the matter.....it would make sense to pay off my remaining vehicle HP and save a bit through early settlement.


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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 5:14 am 
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Some stuff on the FT's website this morning.

Some points worth noting. It says it's aimed partly at sole-traders, so that means you don't have to be registered as a limited company.

But looks like it will help if you have a business bank account, and can therefore apply to your normal bank. Of course, sole traders don't need a business bank account, so that shouldn't be a bar to being granted a loan, but it might take a bit longer, or may include a more difficult application process.

Note too the stuff about fraud and recovery on loan defaults, so although it may all look a bit more lax than the normal processes, at the end of the day it's not just free money that won't have to be paid back.

Anyway, less than three hours to go now, so it should all become a bit clearer later this morning. Or not, if the whole system collapses 8-[


How will the UK’s ‘bounce back loan’ scheme work?

https://www.ft.com/content/1ca15db2-93e ... 0309cd9716

Small businesses hope the fast-track credit scheme will be a lifeline

Who can apply for bounce back loans and what are the terms?

Companies of any size can apply, but they are aimed at small businesses with fewer than 10 employees and at the UK’s 900,000 sole traders.

You must have been trading on March 1 2020 and must not have been an “undertaking in difficulty” as of December 31 2019. Any individual other than a sole trader or a partner acting on behalf of a partnership cannot apply.

Mike Cherry, chair of the Federation of Small Businesses, said the coronavirus business interruption loan scheme (CBILS) “has not worked for the small firms that make up 99 per cent of our business community. The new bounce back facility offers real hope in this space”.

Under the scheme, companies can borrow between £2,000 and £50,000 for up to six years. Businesses can borrow a maximum of 25 per cent of their turnover.

The government will cover interest and fees on a loan for the first year. Businesses start their loan repayments after 12 months, and the interest rate will be 2.5 per cent.

How is a bounce back loan obtained?

The same 50-plus lenders accredited by the British Business Bank, the state-owned financial institution, to provide coronavirus business interruption loans are also expected to offer bounce back loans.

Companies seeking a coronavirus business interruption loan have complained about lengthy delays with the application process and stringent qualification criteria.

By contrast, applicants under the bounce back loan scheme will have to fill out a simple online form which will ask for details such as annual turnover, bank account number, the amount of credit sought, and whether the business has been adversely affected by the virus. You do not have to offer security or personal guarantees.

Nor do applicants have to stick with their existing lenders. Although the big five banks are responsible for the majority of lending, there are likely to be plenty of alternatives. These include peer-to-peer platforms such as Funding Circle, and SME lending specialists like Newable.

Stephen Jones, chief executive of UK Finance, the trade body for banks, said: “Lenders are working at pace to get the [bounce back loan] scheme up and running and we hope to see an increasing number of firms accredited from across the broad and diverse lending community to ensure [the scheme] is available to as many small business customers who wish to borrow under the scheme as possible.”

While the crisis means the need to get cash to businesses is pressing, HM Revenue & Customs will run retrospective checks on applications for bounce back loans as part of efforts to minimise fraud. These will be far more likely if applicants default on loan repayments and trigger the government guarantee.

How quickly will banks be able to make a decision on a loan application and provide the money?

Companies who apply to a lender with whom they already have a business account should expect to receive the loan within days.

For companies applying through new accounts, or which are approaching a new lender, it will take slightly longer, but banks said they will work to process these loans as quickly as possible.

A business applied for a coronavirus business interruption loan and heard nothing back: can it now apply for a bounce back loan?

Yes. You can apply for up to £50,000. You can also convert an existing or future coronavirus business interruption loan of £50,000 or less to a bounce back loan.

The interest rate of 2.5 per cent on bounce back loans is expected to be lower than on coronavirus business interruption loans, which only carry an 80 per cent state guarantee for the lender.

“The minimum facility size for term loans . . . under [the coronavirus business interruption loan scheme] will increase to £50,001 to avoid any risk of confusion or overlap [with the bounce back loan scheme],” Mr Sunak told lenders on Saturday.

What will happen if a business cannot afford to repay the bounce back loan?

Banks will chase borrowers who default in the normal way, seeking to seize property or other assets.

If they cannot recover the money, they will approach the British Business Bank and activate the government guarantee.

The British Chambers of Commerce said 30 per cent of its members could not afford to pay loans back.

Suren Thiru, head of economics at the British Chambers of Commerce, said: “Serious consideration must . . . be given to the expansion of grant schemes for firms unwilling to take on more debt repayments.”


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