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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:30 am 
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one of our vehicles has been in to a garage for the last couple of weeks due to an engine light being on and unable to clear.
The garage tried a forced regen by taking the car along the A50 at speeds up to 85 miles per hour in total the car spent 11 minutes at speeds in excess of the 70 mph speed limit. this didn't fix the problem so they had to send the car to a Toyota dealer in Eastwood. They seem to have fixed the problem with a software update. The car went back to the original garage yesterday afternoon. This morning i looked on our tracker system and the car was parked outside a house in Sutton in Ashfield and was driven back this morning. I rang the garage up and asked where my car was and they said it was parked outside their workshop. I said no it isn't it is currently being driven from Sutton in Ashfield along the M1. This threw them a bit I told them that since they have had the vehicle it has been driven a total of 200 miles to which the reply was that this was road testing. when I questioned why someone had taken it home they told me that this was normal practice. So it would seem that employees at this garage do not need their own transport, they just use customers cars to get to and from work and drive them at excessive speeds.
Should I be concerned that they use customers cars for their own use in the guise of a road test? Should I report this to anyone? If so who?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:49 am 
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I seem to remember a couple of years ago a similar incident in south wales in which the dash cam captured images of a mechanic racing a customers car !

Whenever I have known garages to force a regen on the DPF it is done with the car stationary and maintaining RPM to get the temperature of the engine high triggering a regen. It is the alternative though to drive the vehicle at 70mph in 3rd gear for 5 miles to get it to happen.

Road testing of a vehicle is normal but my garage takes the car for a short spin of about a mile or so.

I am wondering if the mechanic using a licensed vehicle as work to home transport is covered by their traders insurance ? I believe non licensed vehicles it is.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:00 pm 
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grandad wrote:
one of our vehicles has been in to a garage for the last couple of weeks due to an engine light being on and unable to clear.
The garage tried a forced regen by taking the car along the A50 at speeds up to 85 miles per hour in total the car spent 11 minutes at speeds in excess of the 70 mph speed limit. this didn't fix the problem so they had to send the car to a Toyota dealer in Eastwood. They seem to have fixed the problem with a software update. The car went back to the original garage yesterday afternoon. This morning i looked on our tracker system and the car was parked outside a house in Sutton in Ashfield and was driven back this morning. I rang the garage up and asked where my car was and they said it was parked outside their workshop. I said no it isn't it is currently being driven from Sutton in Ashfield along the M1. This threw them a bit I told them that since they have had the vehicle it has been driven a total of 200 miles to which the reply was that this was road testing. when I questioned why someone had taken it home they told me that this was normal practice. So it would seem that employees at this garage do not need their own transport, they just use customers cars to get to and from work and drive them at excessive speeds.
Should I be concerned that they use customers cars for their own use in the guise of a road test? Should I report this to anyone? If so who?


What street was it parked on in Sutton in Ashfield Pete?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:02 pm 
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Nidge2 wrote:
grandad wrote:
one of our vehicles has been in to a garage for the last couple of weeks due to an engine light being on and unable to clear.
The garage tried a forced regen by taking the car along the A50 at speeds up to 85 miles per hour in total the car spent 11 minutes at speeds in excess of the 70 mph speed limit. this didn't fix the problem so they had to send the car to a Toyota dealer in Eastwood. They seem to have fixed the problem with a software update. The car went back to the original garage yesterday afternoon. This morning i looked on our tracker system and the car was parked outside a house in Sutton in Ashfield and was driven back this morning. I rang the garage up and asked where my car was and they said it was parked outside their workshop. I said no it isn't it is currently being driven from Sutton in Ashfield along the M1. This threw them a bit I told them that since they have had the vehicle it has been driven a total of 200 miles to which the reply was that this was road testing. when I questioned why someone had taken it home they told me that this was normal practice. So it would seem that employees at this garage do not need their own transport, they just use customers cars to get to and from work and drive them at excessive speeds.
Should I be concerned that they use customers cars for their own use in the guise of a road test? Should I report this to anyone? If so who?


What street was it parked on in Sutton in Ashfield Pete?

Rockcliffe grange.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:18 pm 
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grandad wrote:
one of our vehicles has been in to a garage for the last couple of weeks due to an engine light being on and unable to clear.
The garage tried a forced regen by taking the car along the A50 at speeds up to 85 miles per hour in total the car spent 11 minutes at speeds in excess of the 70 mph speed limit. this didn't fix the problem so they had to send the car to a Toyota dealer in Eastwood. They seem to have fixed the problem with a software update. The car went back to the original garage yesterday afternoon. This morning i looked on our tracker system and the car was parked outside a house in Sutton in Ashfield and was driven back this morning. I rang the garage up and asked where my car was and they said it was parked outside their workshop. I said no it isn't it is currently being driven from Sutton in Ashfield along the M1. This threw them a bit I told them that since they have had the vehicle it has been driven a total of 200 miles to which the reply was that this was road testing. when I questioned why someone had taken it home they told me that this was normal practice. So it would seem that employees at this garage do not need their own transport, they just use customers cars to get to and from work and drive them at excessive speeds.
Should I be concerned that they use customers cars for their own use in the guise of a road test? Should I report this to anyone? If so who?


Interesting one, I would go to Toyota customer services, if it’s a Toyota dealership? Not sure why you had to send a car to Eastwood there must be nearer dealerships, there’s no dealership in Eastwood nearest I could find was Ilkeston, and there’s no street in Sutton-in-Ashfield by that name, nearest one I could find was Mansfield, but I’m sure Nidge will correct me if I’m wrong.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:53 pm 
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mancityfan wrote:
grandad wrote:
one of our vehicles has been in to a garage for the last couple of weeks due to an engine light being on and unable to clear.
The garage tried a forced regen by taking the car along the A50 at speeds up to 85 miles per hour in total the car spent 11 minutes at speeds in excess of the 70 mph speed limit. this didn't fix the problem so they had to send the car to a Toyota dealer in Eastwood. They seem to have fixed the problem with a software update. The car went back to the original garage yesterday afternoon. This morning i looked on our tracker system and the car was parked outside a house in Sutton in Ashfield and was driven back this morning. I rang the garage up and asked where my car was and they said it was parked outside their workshop. I said no it isn't it is currently being driven from Sutton in Ashfield along the M1. This threw them a bit I told them that since they have had the vehicle it has been driven a total of 200 miles to which the reply was that this was road testing. when I questioned why someone had taken it home they told me that this was normal practice. So it would seem that employees at this garage do not need their own transport, they just use customers cars to get to and from work and drive them at excessive speeds.
Should I be concerned that they use customers cars for their own use in the guise of a road test? Should I report this to anyone? If so who?


Interesting one, I would go to Toyota customer services, if it’s a Toyota dealership? Not sure why you had to send a car to Eastwood there must be nearer dealerships, there’s no dealership in Eastwood nearest I could find was Ilkeston, and there’s no street in Sutton-in-Ashfield by that name, nearest one I could find was Mansfield, but I’m sure Nidge will correct me if I’m wrong.

The car was bought from Available car and it developed a fault with the DPF. It went back to Available car but they couldn't fix it so they sent it to the Toyota dealer who did a software update and that fixed the problem. The car went back to Available car and it was one of their managers who took the car home. I think it was the Berry Hill area of Sutton/Mansfield.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:54 pm 
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Grandad wrote:
The garage tried a forced regen by taking the car along the A50 at speeds up to 85 miles per hour in total the car spent 11 minutes at speeds in excess of the 70 mph speed limit.

As Edders (kind of) said, a forced regen wouldn't be done on the roads, as far as I know.

Each manufacturer slightly different, but *passive* regen is when soot burned off the dpf due to high exhaust temperatures in normal driving, most obviously at constant higher speeds on an A-road or motorway. *Active* regeneraration normally happens under same conditions, but when dpf half blocked extra fuel will be injected to raise the temperature to burn off the soot.

*Forced* regeneration is a garage-based process, as far as I know, and as edders said.

Of course, the precise terminology may have nothing to do with your case, but anyway can't see the need to get up to particularly high road speeds, and of course they shouldn't be breaking the speed limit to do a regen.

The guidance normally just states to keep it in a lower gear, so the revs are kept high (above 2,000 rpm, I think) and not really anything to do with road speed. Any semi-competent garage would know that.

Anyway, might be worth talking to police - taking without owner's consent, basically, because no obvious need for the excess mileage.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:37 pm 
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If they were 'testing' the motor then that could be viewed as a legal process.

However if they weren't 'testing' it, then the driver has committed a number of offences.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:58 pm 
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StuartW wrote:
Grandad wrote:
The garage tried a forced regen by taking the car along the A50 at speeds up to 85 miles per hour in total the car spent 11 minutes at speeds in excess of the 70 mph speed limit.

As Edders (kind of) said, a forced regen wouldn't be done on the roads, as far as I know.

Each manufacturer slightly different, but *passive* regen is when soot burned off the dpf due to high exhaust temperatures in normal driving, most obviously at constant higher speeds on an A-road or motorway. *Active* regeneraration normally happens under same conditions, but when dpf half blocked extra fuel will be injected to raise the temperature to burn off the soot.

*Forced* regeneration is a garage-based process, as far as I know, and as edders said.

Of course, the precise terminology may have nothing to do with your case, but anyway can't see the need to get up to particularly high road speeds, and of course they shouldn't be breaking the speed limit to do a regen.

The guidance normally just states to keep it in a lower gear, so the revs are kept high (above 2,000 rpm, I think) and not really anything to do with road speed. Any semi-competent garage would know that.

Anyway, might be worth talking to police - taking without owner's consent, basically, because no obvious need for the excess mileage.

If the regen doesn't begin when they try it on the computer, a static regen, then the vehicle is run as stated at higher revs, I was always told above 3000 revs for 15 minutes but this is usually done in 3rd gear so the speed is never that high. We had tried it ourselves before it went over. Before we took it over Toyota had been contacted and they said it was a fault with this model and it was basically stuck in a loop whereby the car needed to regen but because the regen was interrupted the engine light comes on. you can't get the light to go out until the regen is done but you can't get the car to do the regen until the light is out. hence the car had to go to Toyota to be reprogrammed before it could regen. Available car were told this from the outset but still had to try it themselves.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:40 am 
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grandad wrote:
If the regen doesn't begin when they try it on the computer, a static regen, then the vehicle is run as stated at higher revs, I was always told above 3000 revs for 15 minutes but this is usually done in 3rd gear so the speed is never that high.

Think 3,000 rpm on the high side. A quick check on VW's website says it should be between 1,800 and 2,500 rpm. Doubt if driving at 3,000 rpm will make much difference, but I suspect it isn't really necessary.

Actually, I'm sure historically VW have just specified a roadspeed in a certain gear, without mentioning rpm. But I suspect that's just to keep the guidance as straightforward as possible in view of the hoohah some people have regarding DPFs and regens etc.


Grandad wrote:
We had tried it ourselves before it went over. Before we took it over Toyota had been contacted and they said it was a fault with this model and it was basically stuck in a loop whereby the car needed to regen but because the regen was interrupted the engine light comes on. you can't get the light to go out until the regen is done but you can't get the car to do the regen until the light is out. hence the car had to go to Toyota to be reprogrammed before it could regen. Available car were told this from the outset but still had to try it themselves.

So that'll be the *active* regen then, when the extra fuel is injected to raise the exhaust system temperature.

Don't get me started on active regens and interruption :x

Not that mine isn't working the way it's supposed to, but it's annoying when I've been on a reasonable drive and when I'm pulling up I realise it's regenerating. Don't like to interrupt it if possible, so have to get going again and drive another two or three miles until it completes the regen, then I will park it up.

Sometimes wondered if mine was getting really clogged up, because I was maybe just doing a few short runs in town, and when I was nearing home at the end of the night it would start regenerating. Which gave me the impression that it was regenerating more than it actually was. But I think the thing was that if all I was doing was a few short runs in town and idling on the rank, the active regen wouldn't start under these conditions. But
when I drove home at night a few miles, that's when the active regen would start, but wouldn't quite finish by the time I got home, so I'd have to keep going an extra couple of miles to let it finish :-o

But it would help if you could manually start an active regen, which I'd obviously do when on a reasonable run, which is the best conditions for doing it under. So if I knew the filter was getting full, and was 10 miles from home, I'd activate it, and it'd be complete a few miles from home. But instead the engine will wait until it gets to a certain level, and then do the regen, which might start just when you're pulling up after a long run :evil:

Of course, there's no way of knowing how full the DPF is, although I think you can get a phone app or similar which can tell you. Would be better if they had some sort of indicator in the car, but again I suspect they think it would make things too complicated for the average driver :roll:

Another useful feature would be a light that would illuminate once an active regen is taking place, and that way you could keep driving until it's complete, and help avoid any complications.

I know the signs to look out for though, so generally know when the active regeneration is taking place, while I suspect a lot of drivers wouldn't have a clue about it :-s

Not always easy to tell, though - I mean, on a motorway at a constant 70 doubt I'd be aware an active regen was taking place, but I know the signs during my more normal driving patterns [-(

But at least my warning light has never come on, so it's always regenerated successfully, and that's why I keep going if I think it's regenerating - better to let it keep going and not interrupt it. I've started, so I'll finish, as someone once said.

I'm on 125,000 miles now, though, so getting to the stage when there might be too much ash in the filter to do successful regens - the regens burn off the soot, but the ash is left, which might eventually clog the filter up too much [-o<


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:34 am 
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mancityfan wrote:
grandad wrote:
one of our vehicles has been in to a garage for the last couple of weeks due to an engine light being on and unable to clear.
The garage tried a forced regen by taking the car along the A50 at speeds up to 85 miles per hour in total the car spent 11 minutes at speeds in excess of the 70 mph speed limit. this didn't fix the problem so they had to send the car to a Toyota dealer in Eastwood. They seem to have fixed the problem with a software update. The car went back to the original garage yesterday afternoon. This morning i looked on our tracker system and the car was parked outside a house in Sutton in Ashfield and was driven back this morning. I rang the garage up and asked where my car was and they said it was parked outside their workshop. I said no it isn't it is currently being driven from Sutton in Ashfield along the M1. This threw them a bit I told them that since they have had the vehicle it has been driven a total of 200 miles to which the reply was that this was road testing. when I questioned why someone had taken it home they told me that this was normal practice. So it would seem that employees at this garage do not need their own transport, they just use customers cars to get to and from work and drive them at excessive speeds.
Should I be concerned that they use customers cars for their own use in the guise of a road test? Should I report this to anyone? If so who?


Interesting one, I would go to Toyota customer services, if it’s a Toyota dealership? Not sure why you had to send a car to Eastwood there must be nearer dealerships, there’s no dealership in Eastwood nearest I could find was Ilkeston, and there’s no street in Sutton-in-Ashfield by that name, nearest one I could find was Mansfield, but I’m sure Nidge will correct me if I’m wrong.



Yeah it's a new development in Mansfield, Avaliable Car is in Sutton in Ashfield off the A38.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:04 pm 
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Nidge2 wrote:
mancityfan wrote:
grandad wrote:
one of our vehicles has been in to a garage for the last couple of weeks due to an engine light being on and unable to clear.
The garage tried a forced regen by taking the car along the A50 at speeds up to 85 miles per hour in total the car spent 11 minutes at speeds in excess of the 70 mph speed limit. this didn't fix the problem so they had to send the car to a Toyota dealer in Eastwood. They seem to have fixed the problem with a software update. The car went back to the original garage yesterday afternoon. This morning i looked on our tracker system and the car was parked outside a house in Sutton in Ashfield and was driven back this morning. I rang the garage up and asked where my car was and they said it was parked outside their workshop. I said no it isn't it is currently being driven from Sutton in Ashfield along the M1. This threw them a bit I told them that since they have had the vehicle it has been driven a total of 200 miles to which the reply was that this was road testing. when I questioned why someone had taken it home they told me that this was normal practice. So it would seem that employees at this garage do not need their own transport, they just use customers cars to get to and from work and drive them at excessive speeds.
Should I be concerned that they use customers cars for their own use in the guise of a road test? Should I report this to anyone? If so who?


Interesting one, I would go to Toyota customer services, if it’s a Toyota dealership? Not sure why you had to send a car to Eastwood there must be nearer dealerships, there’s no dealership in Eastwood nearest I could find was Ilkeston, and there’s no street in Sutton-in-Ashfield by that name, nearest one I could find was Mansfield, but I’m sure Nidge will correct me if I’m wrong.



Yeah it's a new development in Mansfield, Avaliable Car is in Sutton in Ashfield off the A38.

We bought the car from the Sutton site but it went to Castle Donnington for the fix because that is nearer to us.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:41 pm 
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We have a problem with the London buses I drive at weekends. They rarely get to a temperature where the various regens will work, so at weekends they are used on rail replacement which generally involves a half-hour trip round the M25 to blow the soot out and get them to working temperature.

Static regen doesn't seem to work for the bigger diesels, they simply won't get to suitable operating temperature. With the Euro 6 exhaust conversions for the slightly older buses costing about £17k per bus (yes, £17k per bus) they can cost almost as much when the filters get blocked.

It would seem a common thing for garages to take cars home as "road tests", maybe a mile round the block won't give the same length of run to get to operating temperature.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:09 am 
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roythebus wrote:
It would seem a common thing for garages to take cars home as "road tests", maybe a mile round the block won't give the same length of run to get to operating temperature.

Not sure how far you'd need to drive to get engine/exhaust temperature up to an adequate temperature for passive reneration, but on a cool day, from cold my oil might take 10 miles to get to its normal temperature in mixed driving. Which is a lot further than what I'd assumed with just the more normal coolant temperature guage, but since I've had an oil temperature guage, have always assumed that the engine takes a bit longer to warm up than I thought previously when relying on coolant temperature (on the other hand, when I spoke to a VW technician about it, he thought the oil temperature might be lagging the actual engine temperature a bit).

Anyway, I'm not entirely convinced that *passive* regeneration is adequte to burn off any soot. Saw one test that monitored soot accumulation on a motorway run, and the higher exhaust temperatures didn't seem to make any difference - it just seemed to keep accumulating as it would if the engine and exhaust were still cold.

Which is maybe why I've often been on quite long runs, and when coming to a halt suddenly realise the thing is going through the *active* regeneration process ](*,)

Well remember when I'd only had the car a few weeks, came off the motorway after a longish drive on a hot summer day, and wondered why the engine seemed to be running a bit different - subsequently found out that that was the *active* regeneration process.

Dunno if everyone is aware of it, and the process varies from car to car, but these are the telltale signs for me. Happens maybe every couple of hundred miles, and lasts about ten minutes, I'd guess.

Anyway, signs and symtoms are:

(1) Engine sounds different. Most noticeable when decelerating and accelerating, changing gear etc, at a roundabout, say. Probably wouldn't notice at a steady motorway speed. And things like traffic noise, my heavy metal CDs etc might make it more difficult to hear.

(2) Idle speed has increased slightly. To confirm (1), I'll let it coast for a couple of seconds when changing gear, and the rev counter will be reading very slightly higher than the normal idle speed. Maybe just 100 rpm or so, but still noticeable.

(3) Burning smell. Never noticed that in the car, but there is a slight burning smell noticeable if I stop the car and get out. Easily missable, though. Have read elsewhere about people experiencing very strong burning smells, even inside the car, but certainly not my experience.

(4) Cooling fan operating. The only time I think I've ever heard my cooling fan is when the dpf is regenerating and I kill the engine. After a couple of seconds the cooling fan will come on, but goes off again just as quickly. Again, I've read of much more obvious cooling fan activity during regeneration, but certainly not on my VW.

(5) Increased fuel consumption. Well that *would* happen if extra diesel is being injected to increase the exhaust system temperature :-o Never really monitored that myself, but one claim I read the other day was by a car owner who said his fuel consumption doubled during active regeneration :shock: I suspect that's a slight exaggeration, but in any case the increased fuel consumption will only happen during the ten minutes or so of the regeneration process.

So those are the signs to look out for on the more general guides (like the AA) which apply across all manufacturers, but of course they won't all be exactly the same, and each model and engine will be at least slighly different.

Another thing I've noticed on the VW, though, is that the engine oil temperature will be slightly higher than normal - I'm guessing about five degrees or so.

Of course, if anyone has an oil temerature guage they'll know it varies depending on things like the external temperature and engine load. So going down a long hill on a cold winter's day, mine would show maybe 85C. Climbing a long motorway incline on a warm summer day might show 110C. So maybe add on another 5C to that if the dpf is actively regenerating.

There are other one-off signs as well. I recall when the car was still reasonably new and it was snowing outside. Lots of steam started rising from the bonnet, and I thought there was a problem of some sort. But I think the dpf had been regenerating, and the heat from the process had made the bonnet quite hot, turning the wet snow into steam :shock:

But, as I said, I don't like to interrupt it when it's going through an active regeneration, so if I'm nearing home, and the engine sounds a bit different, I'll let it coast for a couple of seconds, and if it's idling higher than normal I'll drive for an extra couple of miles to let the process complete.

But if the dpf warning light comes on, a lot of people think a 20-minute motorway run at highish revs will clear the soot, and this is because of the *passive* regeneration process, ie because of the higher temperatures generated on a long run in normal driving.

But I suspect *active* regeneration will be the main factor at work. Problem is that with short trips etc the exhaust temperature won't get high enough for either passive or active regeneration.

Which is why, I think, the car often seems to wait until I'm driving home to start actively regenerating - if I'm pottering around in town, idling on the rank etc, it won't start the active regeneration. But when I drive home five miles or so, and the exhaust gets reasonably hot, it'll start actively regenerating. But home isn't far enough away to finish the process, so I'll end up driving a couple of miles extra to complete the procedure ](*,)

Of course, if I didn't have the five-mile drive home at the end of the night, and did the same pottering about town every night, the filter would eventually get sufficiently clogged up for the warning light to come on, then I'd have to go for a good drive anyway.


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