Taxi Driver Online

The scene, [Hack]pick up punter going out of town,[out of LA area] pays me up front to some low lying area out in the sticks
when we arrive they say right hang on, the mother in law is coming out, she needs to go further out into the sticks, this is her only means of getting home [my taxi], I explain, no can do,
1. he could hand over another amount of cash before getting out to cover the mother in law's fare, or 2. on the other foot the mother in law pays me at the end of her journey which would be unlawful

legal or not if I take em on No2 example
your thoughts

What if the passenger had told you when he first got in the cab, that he wants you to take his mother home when you reach the destination?

Regards

JD

Its gotta count as one hire - like getting to a destination and being asked to take the babysitter home! Either way if you were that far out in the sticks does it really matter as no one would have seen you anyhow

Well if it's the case that you have no obligation to go out of area then if you've agreed to do so on the basis of the first destination then strictly speaking you shouldn't have to go any further, unless of course that was agreed at the outset.

But if they were willing to pay the fare then what was the problem Pete?

Sounds like the kind of job I like, personally.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

No problem TDO, Just thing legal

You pose a good point which makes a mockery of current legislation. However if the punter got in your cab and told you he wants you to pick up his mother at the end of the journey and take her home, then for legal purposes you could count that as a seperate private hire booking.

Alternately if the passenger told you he is picking up another passenger at destination A and the journey will end at destination B and that he wants a price to destination A and the meter should be engaged for the continuation of the journey from Destination A to B then that would no doubt be within the law as it might count as one hire. Although if a council wanted to prosecute they would no doubt say it was two seperate hires. It would make a good court case lol.

Regards

JD

It goes on all over the place Pete, the Councils are reluctant to do anything about it.

Lets make it easier to understand what I am saying or trying to say

You pick up in your own local area, lets say its a flagger off the street

the punter wants to go out of area, pays up front

so lets say its York to Doncaster, example

In Doncaster he says drop me off here thanks, oh by the way save me ringing another taxi could you take my mother in law home to Leeds, she'll pay you. I wouldn't have any idea of the mileage or costs of Doncaster to Leeds so I would have to use the meter [a York tariff]

therefore have have I picked up an illegal hire out of my Hack taxi area with the punters mother in law getting in the cab.

is this something to do with cross border hirings

If the man books you to take his mother from A to B then that is a booked job no matter which way you look at it, it has nothing whatsoever to do with standing and plying for hire. Therefore you should concentrate on that aspect of the law.

Regards

JD

Methinks it's 100% legal.

As a HC you don't need a ops license to take a booking, and you took a booking.

You didn't tout, you didn't ply, you just accepted a booking and ful-filled it.

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IDFIMH

I have stated previously that this is a very good question because it is one of a number of examples that could fit the Gladen scenario.

If we examine the situation further we can conclude that the booking is a private hiring, which takes place in another authority other than the one the driver or the vehicle is licensed. Once the passenger reaches his destination he pays the driver and asks him "could he take another passenger to a destination" further down the line? That in all intents and purposes is a private booking but can the driver legally take the job?

Alternately if the driver had a booking agent in his own authority would he be within the law to give the passenger his number and ask him to phone the booking agency and make the booking in that way?

Alternately if the driver worked from a central booking agency, which is based in the authority where he was to pick up the passenger and he gave the details of the booking agency for the passenger to telephone, would he then "legally" be able to take the job?

Alternately if the driver worked from a central booking agency in a completely different authority than the one which he is licensed and the authority where the passenger was to be picked up, would he legally be able to take the booking?

All interesting scenarios but the bottom line is trying to define which one is legal? Captain Cab and no doubt some other people are of the opinion that a hackney carriage driver taking a private booking outside the area they are licensed is illegal. I understand why he thinks that and it would be interesting to hear what he has to say on the scenario presented by Pete?

The two trains of thought, which present the conflict of law, are the more recent Gladen judgment and the older 1995 Wilson judgment. Albeit that Wilson was found not guilty by virtue of a legal loophole.

Perhaps your question could be broadened to encompass the following,

"Is there a scenario under which the passengers mother can legally be taken on board as a passenger"

Some would no doubt say that before the Gladen case the answer would be "yes" but only if the person worked from a radio booking system that takes bookings in the area in which the driver and vehicle is licensed. With the added assumption that the prospective passenger booked the job over the telephone with the drivers booking agency. I don't think there is any dispute about that because that is how some people still interpret the law. However what if you didn't have a radio?

Perhaps some people are wondering why it is that taking a booking in one particular way as against another makes one legal and the other illegal? Especially considering the fact that they both serve the same means to an end?

The major problem with the Wilson judgment is that it was prosecuted under private hire legislation and there was no citation by the defence of established case law which is precedent as to what is a hackney carriage. It has been established that in law a hackney carriage never changes its spots for as long as it is licensed, it is therefore always a hackney carriage.

The Gladen case was not about the physical construction or licensed capabilities of a hackney carriage it was about whether or not "any person could take a booking for a licensed hackney carriage driver driving a licensed hackney carriage" without the need for an operators license?

The court was of the opinion that anyone can take a private booking for a licensed hackney carriage driver as long as the vehicle they used in the process was a licensed hackney carriage.

So under Gladen it could be construed that even if you didn't have a radio you could still take the booking because you are a licensed hackney carriage driver using a licensed hackney carriage vehicle. The thorn in the side as I have mentioned in previous threads is this, A licensed driver and vehicle are always a licensed driver and vehicle and both are accountable to the authority that licensed them. It has been suggested that by taking a passenger from outside your licensed area that somehow you don't become accountable?

The facts are that if someone phoned me up in my licensed area to come and pick them up in another licensed area then the licensed area where the passenger is being picked up has no control over me whatsoever. The control lies with the authority that licenses my vehicle and me.

Now take this scenario, my vehicle and myself are licensed in Newcastle but I have a booking agent in Carlisle who takes bookings on my behalf. My booking agent in Carlisle or wherever he may be for that matter books a job with me from a Carlisle resident. At this point in time, from the resident making the booking and the agent accepting that booking no offence has been committed. From the point of view of Captain Cab an offence would be committed if the job was contracted out to me in Newcastle. The main point of the Captains argument is that I am not licensed in Carlisle and that the local authority has no control over my vehicle or me? That argument falls down on the previous scenario I highlighted where the passenger phones me in Newcastle to pick them up in Carlisle because no matter which way you look at it Carlisle still have no jurisdiction over me or my vehicle?

So basically the point is about being both licensed and accountable, therefore as a court of law would ask itself, we also ask ourselves, "is a licensed driver and vehicle at all times accountable" to a licensing authority? The answer to that is yes.

Now we ask ourselves does a licensed hackney carriage driver and vehicle need to be licensed in every authority in the country in order that they are accountable to that authority if they should ever take a private booking from within that authority?

It is my opinion as the law currently stands and the ease of which the Wilson scenario can be circumvented that a court of law might well determine that a driver and vehicle licensed as a hackney carriage is indeed accountable to the authority that licensed it. Therefore it need not be licensed in every authority in the country just so it can take private bookings through a third party outside the area it is licensed.

However as always I am not so stupid as to predetermine what the courts will do but I only offer an opinion as to what they might do?

Regards

JD