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 Post subject: Deamand survey frequency
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:10 pm 
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Hi

Very interesting debate regarding the frequency of surveys

Here in Renfrewshire the Council seem to order a full survey every few years & in between instruct their own enforcement officer (ex Police) to do this on his own

These surveys seems to be at roughly 12 monthly intervals and it will be interesting to see if the Dundee judgement changes things

You might want to look at the most recent of the Council's 'in house' surveys

Link to Renfrewshire Council document

note at 3.7 the local T.O.A.'s helpfully indicate their is no demand for taxis which is unmet

Cheers


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:43 pm 
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Renfrewshire Driver wrote:
Hi

Very interesting debate regarding the frequency of surveys

Here in Renfrewshire the Council seem to order a full survey every few years & in between instruct their own enforcement officer (ex Police) to do this on his own

These surveys seems to be at roughly 12 monthly intervals and it will be interesting to see if the Dundee judgement changes things

You might want to look at the most recent of the Council's 'in house' surveys

Link to Renfrewshire Council document

note at 3.7 the local T.O.A.'s helpfully indicate their is no demand for taxis which is unmet

Cheers


Having read this survey I would say this council may have left itself open to legal challenge. The last independent survey was undertaken in 2003, as we can see from the Dundee ruling the survey in question could be out of time. That’s if you subscribe to the theory that there has been no independent assessment since that date.

It has been implied that the Dundee case might suggest a council could inform itself of the level of demand through its own internal mechanism. I don't subscribe to that view because I believe a court would expect such evidence to be gathered independently.

A court will determine the level of proof a council must submit in order to satisfy the court that it has carried out its duty under the said legislation. A council who convinces itself that there is no unmet demand will have to submit the evidence by which it did so. Under normal circumstances that evidence would have to be independent.

In respect of advice from Taxi licence holders. Paragraph 27 in Circular 3/85 states. Which applies to England and wales.

It will not in general be sufficient for a district council to rely on the assertion of existing taxi licence holders that the demand is already catered for.

Regards
JD


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:16 am 
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JD wrote:
We are not a million miles apart on this. My reference to Surveys and shelf life was confined to Dundee and what was stated in that case. I don't know if the Scottish courts would find a survey, which was completed in March outdated by April. I also do not know what time frame if any the Scottish courts would deem acceptable for a survey to be classed as current?

I can see the point in your proposal that a council has to measure demand when presented with an application for a license but did the court actually say that? Was it not the case that the court implied a Council had to be satisfied there was no demand present when refusing a license. How a council did this is entirely up to them. One would assume that the information had to be recent and up to date but how recent I cannot say.

Correct me if I'm wrong but what is being inferred by yourself is that there will never be a time when a council can be satisfied of demand because every time an applicant applies for a license the council has to undertake a new assessment. So would it follow if a council had one application each month they would have to undertake 12 assessments in a year?



I would say that the assessment has to be 'contemporaneus', and I suspect that to satisfy that an assesssment would have to be made on at least a monthly basis to coincide with when decisions on applications are made.

At least that's how I would read the cases, and I think the one sentence from the above quote from the article by the solicitor involved in the case lends support to that view:

The issue of demand requires to be reviewed on an ongoing basis with the licensing authority being in a position to satisfy itself on the current demand for taxi services on each occasion an application for the grant of a new licence comes before it.

As I said, having read the three cases it seems that there's not so much emphasis put on the independent surveys, indeed an even more radical version of that view was contained in the legal Annexe to the OFT survey, which said:

[The Coyle and Dundee] cases suggest that licensing authorities in Scotland do not have to base their decisions on formal unmet demand surveys, but that it will be sufficient for the level of demand to be kept under review by a council official who has the information to judge whether the demand has increased since the matter was last considered.

Leaving that aside, the interesting part seems to be the ongoing assessment and how that's carried out - the cases explicitly state that this has not been ruled upon yet.

However, apart from the Renfrewshire one that you considered above, I've come across a couple which perhaps demonstrate the divergent approaches that this uncertainty has engendered - it seems very much a case of LAs taking completely different approaches, and like the LAs in England who effectively do as they please and presumably hope they won't be challenged, this seems to be the approach of some of the Scottish LAs to the ongoing assessment aspect.

In Dundee, it seems that it was felt that it was effectively impossible to carry out an adequate assessment that would prevent any legal challenge, and this may well have been part of the reason for the de-restriction on the basis of WAVs there - in effect, the legal test was considered disproportionately stringent to adhere to. (extract below).

The assessment in Edinburgh (the one referred to on the Fastblacks forum as a 'till receipt') is an abomination, and is clearly intended merely to be seen to be doing something, but doesn't really do anything to assess SUD at all. One of the Fastblacks contributors seems to think that this would satisfy the Lord President's requirements (ie as per the Coyle case), but I would doubt this, particularly in view of the Dundee attitude. (see below).

As for the independence of any assessment, clearly Dundee and Edinburgh took polar opposite approaches to this. I don't think that the cases necessitate a totally independent assessment, and clearly Edinburgh agrees with this, although the actual substance of the report is rubbish.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:24 am 
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From the Dundee 'de-restriction report:'

The Sheriff upheld the appeal and granted all 71 licences. He took the view that the 2000 survey, albeit only two years old, was historic and could not be used to come to the view that there was no significant unmet demand for taxis in September 2002. He further observed that information on unmet demand for taxis should be updated on each occasion the Committee meet to consider applications for taxi licences although he did not comment on the practicalities of this. This was why Halcrow were asked for their opinion as to how to update the information prior to the Committee meeting each month. In coming to his view the Sheriff relied on a Court of Session case (Coyle -v- Glasgow City Council). Since the Court of Session is a higher court than the Sheriff Court the Sheriff was bound to follow its decision.

[...]

A number of issues have arisen as a result of the Sheriff's decision, for instance, how practical is it to update the information on the level of demand for taxis in order that the Committee has this material before it each time it considers an application? The 1999 and 2002 surveys were carried out over a period of some three months. This is perhaps the most fundamental issue since, unless the Committee has the material before it to enable it to assess whether there is significant unmet demand, it would be obliged to grant applications (assuming there are no other grounds for refusal, eg previous convictions of the applicant, etc). Halcrow were asked for their views on the practicality of monthly updates (given that the committee meets on a monthly basis). They advised that to carry out any detailed analysis would likely be an expensive exercise. No realistic alternative has been suggested by Halcrow.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:33 am 
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The Edinburgh 'Taxi Monitor's' report from last month:
(This document hasn't copied too well into the forum, and there's graphics in it which are missing, but it's on the ECC website, and if anyone wants a copy I'll send it to them.)

THE CITY OF EDINBURGH COUNCILItem no

Report no
Taxi Licensing Officer’s Monthly Report
Reg u I at o ry Com m it t ee

16 February 2005

Purpose of report
1 To advise the Regulatory Committee of the terms of the Taxi Licensing Officer‘s Monthly Report.

Main report
2 Appendix 1 to this report comprises the Taxi Licensing Officer’s Report covering the month of January 2005. These monthly Reports by the Taxi Licensing Officer assist the Committee in determining whether the grant of a taxi licence may be refused for the purpose of limiting the number of taxis in respect of which these licences are granted. This step can only be taken if the Committee are satisfied that there is no significant demand for the services of taxis in Edinburgh which is unmet.

Recommendation
To note the terms of the Report

Director of Corp
g p / a s
Appendix
Contactltel
Wards affected City Wide
Background None
Papers
Monthly Report for January 2005
P Lang - Taxi Licensing Officer 01 31 -529-4250


1 TAXI LICENSING OFFICER - MONTHLY REPORT COVERING
JANUARY 2005

JANUARY 2005 - LICENCE APPLICATIONS FOR TAXI/ P.H.C.s

New applications for taxi and private hire car (p.h.c.) licences received during
January 2005 are depicted below:

The above figures were obtained from a receipting system printout of applications received (see also appendix I).

Taxi (Operator’s) Licence
One application for a taxi (operator’s) licence was lodged in January 2005. The applicant did not claim “special circumstances”.

Taxi Driver’s Licence
Applications for taxi driver’s licences totalled 19 in January 2005. In December 2004 there were 7 applications for a taxi driver’s licence and in January 2004 there were 15.

Corporate Holder
In January 2005 there were 7 such applications. There were 2 such applications in December 2004.

Change of Manager
Each licence held by a non-natural person has a named day-to-day manager as joint licence holder. Any change of this manager involves a new application. In January 2005 there were 4 such applications.

P.H.C. (Operator’s) Licence
P.h.c. (operator’s) licence applications totalled 14 in January 2005. In December 2004 there were 10 and there were 7 such applications in January 2004.

P.H.C. Driver’s Licence
There were 44 applications for p.h.c. driver’s licences. 44 applications for these licences were received in December 2004 and 59 in January 2004.

1
Summary
A total of 19 persons applied for a taxi driver’s licence in January 2005. 7 applied for a taxi driver’s licence in December 2004. Four more applications were received for a private hire car (operator’s) licence as compared to December: 14 in total. The same number of applications were received for private hire car driver’s licences as
compared to December: 44 in total.

RENEWAL APPLICATIONS RECEIVED IN JANUARY 2005
The above table lists the licence renewal applications received. The above figure for renewal of a taxi operator‘s licence does not include any that may have accompanied an application for incorporation (in this particular instance the renewal fee is included as part of the incorporation fee). The driver’s licences mentioned above are usually renewed for a period of three years but 1 of the applications involving the renewal of a taxi driver’s licence and 1 involving the renewal of a private hire car driver’s licence were for a period of 1 year.

TOPOGRAPHICAL TEST
In January 8 applicants for a taxi driver’s licence sat the topographical test - 5 of these were successful. (The Taxi Examination Centre supplies these figures).

STREET ENFORCEMENT
During the month of January Taxi Examination Centre staff stopped and checked 28 taxis (3 minor defect or irregularity was detected and 2 received a “red label”). 4 private hire cars were also stopped and checked ( I minor defects or irregularities were detected and 0 received a “red label”). A “red label” prevents the vehicle being used as a licensed hire car until the defect or irregularity has been addressed and
the vehicle rechecked.

2
,
LICENSED VEHICLE NUMBERS AND POPULATION TO VEHICLE RATIOS AT
4 FEBRUARY 2005
16.381
*The numbers of taxis and p.h.c.s were obtained from the hire car licensing database; the population of the City of Edinburgh (448,080) was obtained from the General Register Office for Scotland (mid-year estimate figures for 2002). (On the 4 February 2005 there were 3277 and 1803 licensed taxi and private hire car drivers
respectively.).

APPENDIX I
Licence applications over the last four months from October 2004
3

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:01 am 
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TDO wrote:
The Edinburgh 'Taxi Monitor's' report from last month:
(This document hasn't copied too well into the forum, and there's graphics in it which are missing, but it's on the ECC website, and if anyone wants a copy I'll send it to them.)

THE CITY OF EDINBURGH COUNCILItem no

Report no
Taxi Licensing Officer’s Monthly Report
Reg u I at o ry Com m it t ee

16 February 2005

Purpose of report
1 To advise the Regulatory Committee of the terms of the Taxi Licensing Officer‘s Monthly Report.

Main report
2 Appendix 1 to this report comprises the Taxi Licensing Officer’s Report covering the month of January 2005. These monthly Reports by the Taxi Licensing Officer assist the Committee in determining whether the grant of a taxi licence may be refused for the purpose of limiting the number of taxis in respect of which these licences are granted. This step can only be taken if the Committee are satisfied that there is no significant demand for the services of taxis in Edinburgh which is unmet.

Recommendation
To note the terms of the Report

Director of Corp
g p / a s
Appendix
Contactltel
Wards affected City Wide
Background None
Papers
Monthly Report for January 2005
P Lang - Taxi Licensing Officer 01 31 -529-4250


1 TAXI LICENSING OFFICER - MONTHLY REPORT COVERING
JANUARY 2005

JANUARY 2005 - LICENCE APPLICATIONS FOR TAXI/ P.H.C.s

New applications for taxi and private hire car (p.h.c.) licences received during
January 2005 are depicted below:

The above figures were obtained from a receipting system printout of applications received (see also appendix I).

Taxi (Operator’s) Licence
One application for a taxi (operator’s) licence was lodged in January 2005. The applicant did not claim “special circumstances”.

Taxi Driver’s Licence
Applications for taxi driver’s licences totalled 19 in January 2005. In December 2004 there were 7 applications for a taxi driver’s licence and in January 2004 there were 15.

Corporate Holder
In January 2005 there were 7 such applications. There were 2 such applications in December 2004.

Change of Manager
Each licence held by a non-natural person has a named day-to-day manager as joint licence holder. Any change of this manager involves a new application. In January 2005 there were 4 such applications.

P.H.C. (Operator’s) Licence
P.h.c. (operator’s) licence applications totalled 14 in January 2005. In December 2004 there were 10 and there were 7 such applications in January 2004.

P.H.C. Driver’s Licence
There were 44 applications for p.h.c. driver’s licences. 44 applications for these licences were received in December 2004 and 59 in January 2004.

1
Summary
A total of 19 persons applied for a taxi driver’s licence in January 2005. 7 applied for a taxi driver’s licence in December 2004. Four more applications were received for a private hire car (operator’s) licence as compared to December: 14 in total. The same number of applications were received for private hire car driver’s licences as
compared to December: 44 in total.

RENEWAL APPLICATIONS RECEIVED IN JANUARY 2005
The above table lists the licence renewal applications received. The above figure for renewal of a taxi operator‘s licence does not include any that may have accompanied an application for incorporation (in this particular instance the renewal fee is included as part of the incorporation fee). The driver’s licences mentioned above are usually renewed for a period of three years but 1 of the applications involving the renewal of a taxi driver’s licence and 1 involving the renewal of a private hire car driver’s licence were for a period of 1 year.

TOPOGRAPHICAL TEST
In January 8 applicants for a taxi driver’s licence sat the topographical test - 5 of these were successful. (The Taxi Examination Centre supplies these figures).

STREET ENFORCEMENT
During the month of January Taxi Examination Centre staff stopped and checked 28 taxis (3 minor defect or irregularity was detected and 2 received a “red label”). 4 private hire cars were also stopped and checked ( I minor defects or irregularities were detected and 0 received a “red label”). A “red label” prevents the vehicle being used as a licensed hire car until the defect or irregularity has been addressed and
the vehicle rechecked.

2
,
LICENSED VEHICLE NUMBERS AND POPULATION TO VEHICLE RATIOS AT
4 FEBRUARY 2005
16.381
*The numbers of taxis and p.h.c.s were obtained from the hire car licensing database; the population of the City of Edinburgh (448,080) was obtained from the General Register Office for Scotland (mid-year estimate figures for 2002). (On the 4 February 2005 there were 3277 and 1803 licensed taxi and private hire car drivers
respectively.).

APPENDIX I
Licence applications over the last four months from October 2004
3


Well done for coming up with this report. Its hardly thorough or comprehensive but it will add weight to those who wishe to challenge Edinburgh council on license refusal.

Regards

JD


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:15 am 
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TDO wrote:
JD wrote:
We are not a million miles apart on this. My reference to Surveys and shelf life was confined to Dundee and what was stated in that case. I don't know if the Scottish courts would find a survey, which was completed in March outdated by April. I also do not know what time frame if any the Scottish courts would deem acceptable for a survey to be classed as current?

I can see the point in your proposal that a council has to measure demand when presented with an application for a license but did the court actually say that? Was it not the case that the court implied a Council had to be satisfied there was no demand present when refusing a license. How a council did this is entirely up to them. One would assume that the information had to be recent and up to date but how recent I cannot say.

Correct me if I'm wrong but what is being inferred by yourself is that there will never be a time when a council can be satisfied of demand because every time an applicant applies for a license the council has to undertake a new assessment. So would it follow if a council had one application each month they would have to undertake 12 assessments in a year?



I would say that the assessment has to be 'contemporaneus', and I susepct that to satisty that an assesssment would have to be made on at least a monthly basis to conincide with when decisions on applications are made.

At least that's how I would read the cases, and I think the one sentence from the above quote from the article by the solicitor involved in the case lends support to that view:

The issue of demand requires to be reviewed on an ongoing basis with the licensing authority being in a position to satisfy itself on the current demand for taxi services on each occasion an application for the grant of a new licence comes before it.

As I said, having read the three cases it seems that there's not so much emphasis put on the independent surveys, indeed an even more radical version of that view was contained in the legal Annexe to the OFT survey, which said:

[The Coyle and Dundee] cases suggest that licensing authorities in Scotland do not have to base their decisions on formal unmet demand surveys, but that it will be sufficient for the level of demand to be kept under review by a council official who has the information to judge
whether the demand has increased since the matter was last
considered.


Leaving that aside, the interesting part seems to be the ongoing assessment and how that's carried out - the cases explicitly state that this has not been ruled upon yet.

However, apart from the Renfrewshire one that you considered above, I've come across a couple which perhaps demonstrate the divergent approaches that this uncertainty has engendered - it seems very much a case of LAs taking completely different approaches, and like the LAs in England who effectively do as they please and presumably hope they won't be challenged, this seems to be the approach of some of the Scottish LAs to the ongoing assessment aspect.

In Dundee, it seems that it was felt that it was effectively impossible to carry out an adequate assessment that would prevent any legal challenge, and this may well have been part of the reason for the de-restriction on the basis of WAVs there - in effect, the legal test was considered disproportionately stringent to adhere to. (extract below).

The assessment in Edinburgh (the one referred to on the Fastblacks forum as a 'till receipt') is an abomination, and is clearly intended merely to be seen to be doing something, but doesn't really do anything to assess SUD at all. One of the Fastblacks contributors seems to think that this would satisfy the Lord President's requirements (ie as per the Coyle case), but I would doubt this, particularly in view of the Dundee attitude. (see below).

As for the independence of any assessment, clearly Dundee and Edinburgh took polar opposite approaches to this. I don't think that the cases necessitate a totally independent assessment, and clearly Edinburgh agrees with this, although the actual substance of the report is rubbish.


Well put together TDO I'll offer my response hopefully within 48 hours. I hope the courts had in mind your contemporaneus time scale. It would certainly put councils in a very difficult position, especially if such evidence had to be independent. Interesting concept we are putting together here.

Regards

JD


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:53 am 
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Location: dundee land of many plates
i was just looking at dundee private hires web site half price fares and merc saloons pity it hasnt been updated for two years http://www.203020.co.uk/
maybe they left it in the hands of stefano remember him ? big time lawyer represtenting all the biggies akran etc, then shouting about investing millions into dundee football club then leaving dundee city accusing all and sundry he is now representing jonathin king (accused and imprisoned peodifile (from america) and is currently trying to run for an msp for dundee? im amased that someone who has clearly travelled the world and been involved with many lowlifes suddenly decides he should try to be involved in the running of dundee city maybe he heard how easy it is to influence the so called council?there has been that many changes to the rules over the last year its like somebody else is running the game


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:26 am 
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Posts: 169
dundee wav wrote:
i was just looking at dundee private hires web site half price fares and merc saloons pity it hasnt been updated for two years http://www.203020.co.uk/
maybe they left it in the hands of stefano remember him ? big time lawyer represtenting all the biggies akran etc, then shouting about investing millions into dundee football club then leaving dundee city accusing all and sundry he is now representing jonathin king (accused and imprisoned peodifile (from america) and is currently trying to run for an msp for dundee? im amased that someone who has clearly travelled the world and been involved with many lowlifes suddenly decides he should try to be involved in the running of dundee city maybe he heard how easy it is to influence the so called council?there has been that many changes to the rules over the last year its like somebody else is running the game

Any names spring time mind WAV?,who is running the show.
Would be interesting to see if the certain name or names,are the same as you and the rest of the trade think.
It is only coincidence,all that has happened and the way it has turned out.
EEEEEEEHHHHHHHH :oops: :oops: 8)


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