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And so the Restricted Areas Taxi Trade can return back
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Author:  Chris the Fish [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: And so the Restricted Areas Taxi Trade can return back
I would hope the majority are "Straight".

I was illustrating the point.

Some Muslims gamble - most do not.

To prove the point - only one would have to refuse to gamble. A Court would have to agree with his position on gambling. So a lottery for allocation is out.
Author:  captain cab [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: And so the Restricted Areas Taxi Trade can return back
Chris the Fish wrote:
captain cab wrote:
Muslims wouldn't like it? I take it you've never been in a taxi in either Leeds, Manchester or Cardiff then?

Can you toss a coin for double or quits on the fare in these fine Burghs?

If the driver is Muslim that is?



Leeds is a good example - there are all manner of pre qualification criteria to get into the lottery.

From memory I mentioned the case in Southampton - the press reported within a couple of weeks of 'winning' a plate lottery that a driver made £30K because he sold it.

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/4890726 ... 180_plate/

I remember an ex chairman of the nta telling me about a question he faced in front of the select committee during the OFT report - it was regarding the same issue - how can you justify being given something worth a lot of money one day - only to sell it the next despite promises you want it to work it.

I cant justify that - so maybe a system where extra plates are issued and become non transferable is right?
Author:  captain cab [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: And so the Restricted Areas Taxi Trade can return back
Chris the Fish wrote:
I would hope the majority are "Straight".

I was illustrating the point.

Some Muslims gamble - most do not.

To prove the point - only one would have to refuse to gamble. A Court would have to agree with his position on gambling. So a lottery for allocation is out.



There's case law

Cardiff vs Cummings :wink:
Author:  Chris the Fish [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: And so the Restricted Areas Taxi Trade can return back
I have NOT said I have the answer - I am very aware of the situations that you cite. I just said that the "Interim" proposal put out by LC has a glaring hole in it.

I am in a restricted area. If I retire I can sell my cab with plate attached. Anyone I choose to sell to, can have it.

If I choose I can retire, retain my cab and plate and derive an income from renting it out.

If I die, my heirs can sell my cab and plate - or they can rent it out to maintain my nearest or dearest.

If that goes away by Ministers insisting on return of plate, all I, or my heirs, have is the value of an un-licensed vehicle.

That is all fine for the sole trader - a Limited Company would never (unless being wound up) have to return a plate. Eventually all Plates would be in the hands of Limited Companies. No Hackney driver, in a restricted area, could ever aspire to owning a cab and plate.
Author:  captain cab [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: And so the Restricted Areas Taxi Trade can return back
Chris the Fish wrote:
I have NOT said I have the answer - I am very aware of the situations that you cite. I just said that the "Interim" proposal put out by LC has a glaring hole in it.

I am in a restricted area. If I retire I can sell my cab with plate attached. Anyone I choose to sell to, can have it.

If I choose I can retire, retain my cab and plate and derive an income from renting it out.

If I die, my heirs can sell my cab and plate - or they can rent it out to maintain my nearest or dearest.

If that goes away by Ministers insisting on return of plate, all I, or my heirs, have is the value of an un-licensed vehicle.

That is all fine for the sole trader - a Limited Company would never (unless being wound up) have to return a plate. Eventually all Plates would be in the hands of Limited Companies. No Hackney driver, in a restricted area, could ever aspire to owning a cab and plate.


You should perhaps look at the Scottish law on the issue - I suspect the LC have - and as Sussex has pointed out, plates still go from limited company to limited company.

A council can refuse to re-issue a plate now after a sale - they have done in the past in York - Warriner vs York (I think)
Author:  Chris the Fish [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: And so the Restricted Areas Taxi Trade can return back
captain cab wrote:
There's case law

Cardiff vs Cummings :wink:

There is indeed - but nobody objected to a lottery as a means of allocation on the grounds that as a Muslim they could not take part in Cumming V Cardiff.

I have read - on TDO - of such an objection but I do not remember where or when this occurred, about three or four years ago I believe. I can't recall if this was an objection or an objection in a precedent setting Court Case. It did stop the "lottery" I think.
Author:  captain cab [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: And so the Restricted Areas Taxi Trade can return back
Chris the Fish wrote:
captain cab wrote:
There's case law

Cardiff vs Cummings :wink:

There is indeed - but nobody objected to a lottery as a means of allocation on the grounds that as a Muslim they could not take part in Cumming V Cardiff.

I have read - on TDO - of such an objection but I do not remember where or when this occurred, about three or four years ago I believe. I can't recall if this was an objection or an objection in a precedent setting Court Case. It did stop the "lottery" I think.



Manchester I think you need to look at
Author:  Chris the Fish [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: And so the Restricted Areas Taxi Trade can return back
So you remember it too?
Author:  captain cab [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: And so the Restricted Areas Taxi Trade can return back
Chris the Fish wrote:
So you remember it too?


https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ab_lottery
Author:  captain cab [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: And so the Restricted Areas Taxi Trade can return back
Also, were Members aware that for those of the Muslim faith the idea of a system based on a 'lottery' is generally considered offensive?

Good job Manchester Council didn't put my picture of the prophet in their reply :shock:
Author:  187ums [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: And so the Restricted Areas Taxi Trade can return back
They remove a hurdle and instead leave a F U in its place, I wonder how the guy who paid £xxx for his plate will feel now that it may become non transferable? And have zero value? Still as the cap says its better than the alternative.
Author:  toots [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: And so the Restricted Areas Taxi Trade can return back
187ums wrote:
They remove a hurdle and instead leave a F U in its place, I wonder how the guy who paid £xxx for his plate will feel now that it may become non transferable? And have zero value? Still as the cap says its better than the alternative.


The ability to work it is a value in itself :wink:
Author:  Chris the Fish [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: And so the Restricted Areas Taxi Trade can return back
The LC want to remove the plate premium. They have a point.

I like the idea of "Golden Handshake" when I have had enough, if I was just about to start however I would like the idea of getting in to the game for much less outlay.

What is needed is something clever enough to encourage Sole Proprietors, yet allowing Limited Companies access so that drivers who want to rent have that opportunity as well.

Perhaps Sole Traders can "own" (in the sense that it is theirs, whilst the property remains with the LA) and Limited Companies can "Lease" (in that after a set time the plate returns to the LA for re-allocation and the leased "plates" or "leases" may not be sold on even as part of the sale of the whole company).

Just an off the wall idea.
Author:  edders23 [ Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: And so the Restricted Areas Taxi Trade can return back
As far as I can tell on a limited read through this has actually changed very little as there are only a limited number of areas that regulate anyway I would imagine that selling your plate would just be replaced with renting out your plate

But we will still be left with the situation of areas where unlimited numbers flood the ranks and areas where a reasonable living can be had i.e. in many parts of the UK drivers will have to work much longer hours than in others for the same level of income that is hardly a proper reform
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