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 Post subject: Re: LC; Genuine Fears
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 8:52 am 
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captain cab wrote:
Dusty Bin wrote:

As for the employment status issue, that's not really anything directly to do with licensing law, so to that extent I think it's an achievement that the LC have raised it at all.



Yeah, for documents relating to the future of taxis not to refer to licensing fees (save for 3 paragraphs) or taxi ranks or national standards is a mighty achievement. :roll:


And I claimed it was? :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: LC; Genuine Fears
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:11 am 
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Dusty Bin wrote:

And I claimed it was? :roll:



No Dusty you never claim anything ffs

but you are going to great lengths to defend this sh*te laid before us.

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 Post subject: Re: LC; Genuine Fears
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:33 am 
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Of course, perhaps the best preassessment of the much coveted but highly secret national standards for PHV's and PHD's by remembering the planned inclusion of Wedding and Funeral vehicles and drivers?

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 Post subject: Re: LC; Genuine Fears
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:36 am 
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captain cab wrote:
Of course, perhaps the best preassessment of the much coveted but highly secret national standards for PHV's and PHD's by remembering the planned inclusion of Wedding and Funeral vehicles and drivers?

Isn't it time you were pro-active instead of destructive?

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 Post subject: Re: LC; Genuine Fears
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:50 am 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
Isn't it time you were pro-active instead of destructive?


If questions are not raised, if points are not made, I will have to live and work with the damage created.

If you wish to sign up to something you are not fully aware of, that is your choice, I am sadly not of the same opinion. They are seemingly trusting private hire operators to do the right thing - they are trusting the market - which obviously hasnt worked properly for 40 odd years and despite massive growth with all these silly rules?

I wouldnt personally trust these people as far as i could throw them, they are either completely naive or stupid.

They mention a piddling little penalty points system which is being judicially reviewed this week.......yet fail to mention the Hemming (t/a Simply Pleasure Ltd) & Ors v Westminster CC case which they must surely have known about, in connection with licensing fees being used to pay for swoops on those who are unlicensed?

They dont even give an opinion on fees, they gave 3 paragraphs - of course, the possible reason they dont is because they anticipate a free for all?

This thing has less than 18 months to run before it becomes law - bearing in mind the influence of PH especially in London, do you honestly think they are going to come out of this worse off? Dropped DSA tests - dropped group 2 medicals - dropped knowledge tests - dropped age policies - more laughably - dropped driver training save for a 2 hours disability awareness course most of the PH firms do in house anyway!

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 Post subject: Re: LC; Genuine Fears
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:05 am 
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Lets not forget the perfectly innocent rationale behind their view on cross borders ph;

Ban on sub-contracting outside of London

Under the current law it is illegal for operators outside of London to sub-contract any of their services. This means that an operator cannot ask another operator to fulfil a booking where the original car becomes unavailable or breaks down, or where it would simply be more efficient for another vehicle to undertake the journey.



But lets look what they actually wrote;

Provisional proposal 41
Private hire operators should no longer be restricted to accepting or inviting bookings only within a particular locality; nor to only using drivers or vehicles licensed by a particular licensing authority.


Did you note how the term 'operator' appears to be missing?

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 Post subject: Re: LC; Genuine Fears
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:09 am 
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captain cab wrote:
No Dusty you never claim anything ffs

but you are going to great lengths to defend this sh*te laid before us.


Eh?

I've been disagreeing with the LC's proposal for a national bog standard for PH from the off.

And I've also been disagreeing with its effective proposal to retain the current mish mash relating to taxis.

More generally, a few hours ago I said:

Dusty wrote:
Indeed the current mess is why the LC have become involved in the first place, but I don't see their proposals doing enough to clear the mess up. It might get rid of some of the rougher edges, but in my opinion what's needed is something a bit more root and branch.

Of course, I think to a large extent the LC are hamstrung by the localism agenda, not to mention the vested interests of local bureaucracies and those in the trade who probably feel they will have more leverage with a continuation of local decision-making.


If that amounts to going to great lengths to defend the LC's proposals then what do I have to do before you think I'm disagreeing with them? :lol:

However, I do think that some of the criticisms being outlined here are based on things like misinterpreting and misrepresenting what the LC has said, and to that extent it's surely legitimate to point these things out.

And I've also posted at some length about some of the LC's questionable statistics that Sussex pointed out, for example, but on the other hand I think it's unreasonable to criticise them because they haven't laid down every last detail pertaining to the proposed national PH standard, for example.

I think the problem with many in the trade is that they see these things in black and white. There's no middle ground.

All I'm trying to do is to add a little balance.


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 Post subject: Re: LC; Genuine Fears
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:10 am 
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Dusty Bin wrote:
captain cab wrote:
No Dusty you never claim anything ffs

but you are going to great lengths to defend this sh*te laid before us.


Eh?

I've been disagreeing with the LC's proposal for a national bog standard for PH from the off.

And I've also been disagreeing with its effective proposal to retain the current mish mash relating to taxis.

More generally, a few hours ago I said:

Dusty wrote:
Indeed the current mess is why the LC have become involved in the first place, but I don't see their proposals doing enough to clear the mess up. It might get rid of some of the rougher edges, but in my opinion what's needed is something a bit more root and branch.

Of course, I think to a large extent the LC are hamstrung by the localism agenda, not to mention the vested interests of local bureaucracies and those in the trade who probably feel they will have more leverage with a continuation of local decision-making.


If that amounts to going to great lengths to defend the LC's proposals then what do I have to do before you think I'm disagreeing with them? :lol:

However, I do think that some of the criticisms being outlined here are based on things like misinterpreting and misrepresenting what the LC has said, and to that extent it's surely legitimate to point these things out.

And I've also posted at some length about some of the LC's questionable statistics that Sussex pointed out, for example, but on the other hand I think it's unreasonable to criticise them because they haven't laid down every last detail pertaining to the proposed national PH standard, for example.

I think the problem with many in the trade is that they see these things in black and white. There's no middle ground.

All I'm trying to do is to add a little balance.


point taken

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 Post subject: Re: LC; Genuine Fears
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:47 am 
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captain cab wrote:
This thing has less than 18 months to run before it becomes law


Until the LC's draft Bill is published, you mean?

It'll be a couple of years at best before it gets through Parliament, so several years before any changes would actually come into force.

I suspect it could be nearer 2020 than the present day until any new law actually came into effect.

Quote:
bearing in mind the influence of PH especially in London, do you honestly think they are going to come out of this worse off? Dropped DSA tests - dropped group 2 medicals - dropped knowledge tests - dropped age policies - more laughably - dropped driver training save for a 2 hours disability awareness course most of the PH firms do in house anyway


So how many LAs actually have standards above the minimum for PH?


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 Post subject: Re: LC; Genuine Fears
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:51 am 
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Dusty Bin wrote:
captain cab wrote:
This thing has less than 18 months to run before it becomes law


Until the LC's draft Bill is published, you mean?

It'll be a couple of years at best before it gets throught Parliament, so several years before any changes would actually come into force.

I suspect it could be nearer 2020 than the present day until any new law actually came into effect.

Quote:
bearing in mind the influence of PH especially in London, do you honestly think they are going to come out of this worse off? Dropped DSA tests - dropped group 2 medicals - dropped knowledge tests - dropped age policies - more laughably - dropped driver training save for a 2 hours disability awareness course most of the PH firms do in house anyway


So how many LAs actually have standard above the minimum for PH?


I was left pretty much certain it will happen before the next election, I presume I was led to this belief by being told so?

What minimum standards do you refer to - the LC's secret ones or the standards some LA's have in place around the country right now?

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 Post subject: Re: LC; Genuine Fears
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:52 am 
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Quote:
I suspect it could be nearer 2020 than the present day until any new law actually came into effect.


I'm sure I heard the lovely Mr RP say it was their intention to have it available to be made law prior to the next general election, but, I could have been hearing things :wink:

Quote:
Until the LC's draft Bill is published, you mean?


Why bother with the consultation, why don't we wait until the draft bill comes out and rip that pieces if necessary?

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 Post subject: Re: LC; Genuine Fears
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:58 am 
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toots wrote:

Why bother with the consultation, why don't we wait until the draft bill comes out and rip that pieces if necessary?



Because this thing will go through on a wink and a nod.

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 Post subject: Re: LC; Genuine Fears
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:00 am 
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captain cab wrote:
toots wrote:

Why bother with the consultation, why don't we wait until the draft bill comes out and rip that pieces if necessary?



Because this thing will go through on a wink and a nod.


You don't say :shock: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: LC; Genuine Fears
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:38 pm 
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toots wrote:
captain cab wrote:
toots wrote:

Why bother with the consultation, why don't we wait until the draft bill comes out and rip that pieces if necessary?



Because this thing will go through on a wink and a nod.


You don't say :shock: :lol:

No he did. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: LC; Genuine Fears
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 6:04 pm 
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viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18218&hilit=likes

No one likes me, I don’t care

By

Wayne Casey


Just when I think I can put my feet up a few days before Christmas, just when I think I can relax a little, just when I think my plans for world domination are back on track. What happens? I open my mailbox and read Derek Cummins part of the editorial for this issue. Thankfully I now have tablets to stop me jumping up and down, and naturally, a limited stock of ‘Fosters’.

Ordinarily I wouldn’t let such delusional fiction bother me. I have the right of reply at a later date. But this seems unfair on you the reader. You may not get the February issue, you may not get the January issue and of course Armageddon may well occur in between. So it’s surely far better to read both stories in the same issue and make up your own mind as to who is right.

So here goes. Firstly, let me clear up one key issue, Derek seems a little confused, being a staunch Evertonian, I do suppose he’s used to that, after all they did sign Marouane Fellaini for £15 million.

Sorry to shatter any illusions here, but I don’t write on behalf of the National Taxi Association. Those people have enough to worry about, let alone little auld me, with my somewhat provocative writing style and views.

As I’m sure Derek is aware from the taxitalk waste paper bin, (better known as the right to reply section), I upset councillors, licensing staff, Institutes, Associations, unions, Government and virtually everyone else I may have missed. I never knowingly miss a decent insult, words such as ‘window-licker’, ‘bonkers’, ‘whacko’ and ‘stupid’ are usually deployed with alarming regularity in everything I write.

To be honest, I don’t really give a damn. But I do take umbrage when the co-editor also gets confused.

So, moving swiftly along.

Let’s look at the events of the past few months. Firstly we had the House of Commons (and it couldn’t be more common if they decorated the outside with Christmas lights) transport select committee look into the issues surrounding taxi licensing, in particular the cross border debacle. This was brought to their attention by Unite the Union. I wrote at the time, in this very magazine no less, and I still maintain, they (Unite the Union) were opening one massive can of worms and let’s face facts, they just kept right on opening.

The Department for Transport also invited the Law Commission to review taxi laws. To which, from Derek’s remarks, should be construed as a good thing. Shortly after the Law Commission advised of their intentions the government responded to the select committee, basically saying the law commission will sort the mess out.

Since September I have personally been in 3 meetings with the law commission, the NTA have attended 6 meetings. My view is well known, this thing is going to end very badly for the taxi trade. Rather than bore readers with details I suggest you look at the law commission website and find out what their remit is (mind you, I have been suggesting this for 6 months).

So we’ll now consider some of Derek’s points in the prosecution against me. He pours scorn on my point that current law works well in the majority of the country.

In order to do this, I fear I may upset a few people, because to know where the law works well, you have to consider where it is working badly. This takes me to Murkyside. Now, I have been in meetings where both trade representatives and licensing staff have praised the licensing system across Murkyside as the veritable beacon of hope as to how the rest of the country should operate. They have driver training, cross border co-operation between licensing staff, indeed a licensing official from one area can cross a border and prosecute in another district. Things are just fine and dandy.

Unfortunately the reality is slightly different. To understand my view you have to accept in a place like Merseyside, with all the surrounding boroughs, Liverpool City is the central hub. People from outside areas get taxis from their own districts and go to Liverpool regularly.

It is similar in the Greater Manchester area, where the City of Manchester is the central hub. In the North East it’s Newcastle & Sunderland. In the West Midlands it’s Birmingham. In South Wales, it’s Cardiff. In the South East it’s London.

Where’s the surprise in large Cities attracting people from suburbia? They’d be completely knackered if people stopped going wouldn’t they?

Yet it is a section of the Liverpool trade who are, perhaps justifiably, upset with Sefton licensed vehicles and drivers regularly doing work for Liverpool based clientele. This situation isn’t new, in actual fact it’s been going on for the best part of 30 years. I mean, a customer from Liverpool, picking up a phone and pre-booking a private hire car from another area…..how dare they! But the 30 odd strong unite section in Liverpool want this situation addressed, so addressed it will be.

Okay, so what do we do? Do we make it compulsory for them to return to their own district?

That’s a good idea, so how do we police it? Do we ask all private hire cars (2000 of them from Sefton alone) what they are doing sitting here, do we employ a few more licensing officers to enforce it, thus increasing license fees?

Indeed, I would actually question the standard of NVQ’s and BTEC’s across Murkyside, because if trained drivers don’t know where they should pick up and whether or not passengers need to be pre-booked, god only knows what it’s like in areas where there’s no training.

It seems to me that everyone knows the problems, but there’s very little thinking through of solutions.

He mentions a chap from Barnstable licensing himself in Berwick and working the vehicle on a private hire circuit some 440 odd miles away.

As Derek will be aware from the Berwick judgement, a local authority is entitled to refuse an application if a person intends to use the vehicle in another area. It’s as simple as adding a question to an application form.

He also points out that whilst some local authorities have strict policies on ‘fitness and propriety’ of drivers, others are more lax, indeed he points out to the vehicle criteria.

I personally have no problem with this at all. Carlisle (for example) has probably the newest fleet of taxis in the UK (we make no money but boy are our cabs shiny), we have a minimum age of 3 and a maximum of 5 on saloon taxis, as well as 3 tests per year. However, will the bar be raised to meet our standards in Carlisle, or will it be raised to meet the standards of somewhere else…..which will effectively mean Carlisle’s standards being lowered?

Of course the upshot of all of this is that the taxi trade appear to be telling government locals are best placed to decide on things like taxi numbers, but not best placed to decide on the type of people who should be driving cabs or the condition that the cabs should be. Somehow I can’t see that argument getting too much credence, either locals are best placed, or they’re not.

He mentions how well the taxi trade saw off the OFT report, a quite delusional view, in my humble opinion (and never has a person been more humble).

From the very outset of the OFT enquiry the best the taxi trade could hope for was no change. It is a fact that less than 10 years ago, the split between local authorities that operated numbers control and those who had no control was roughly 50/50.

The reality is today 75% of local authorities do not limit taxi numbers, this is an unpalatable fact and one to which from at least NTA discussions with the Law Commission, one they are perfectly well aware. If this is an example of taxi trade success, I wouldn’t want an example of failure.

How Derek can suggest, by any stretch of the imagination, the OFT was seen off (or more laughably OFT KO’d read the headline in Cab Trade News), when government best practice guidance clearly states that they consider it best practice not to control taxi numbers and only 80 odd out of 343 limit numbers is anyone’s guess.

Derek’s critique lists a whole lot of problems with current legislation, which I presume is exactly what the Law commission want. What better reason to devise new taxi law when the current ones are a crock of sh*t? It is however completely bereft of answers. Except of course for the need for new legislation.

I don’t subscribe to Derek’s view, I would go down the route of suggesting perhaps the 1976 act should be completely scrapped and replaced, in part, with vast swathes of the London Private Hire Act, but even then, the situation in London isn’t exactly that much far better than the provinces, and of course, taxi numbers in London are not limited.

Furthermore, to hold up London as a bastion of taxi harmony doesn’t hold up, they’ve had taxi law up dated regularly since 1831 with at least 30 different bits of legislation to get to where they are now, which is of course a situation where taxi drivers regularly complain of minicabs illegally plying, touts and rapists…….sounds almost like the provinces?

When I read pieces using such phrases as ‘singing from the same hymn sheet’ I tend to agree, after all, both myself and Derek have been crying out for the taxi trade to be more aware for years. But the problem with the ‘hymn sheet’ analogy is Derek means his ‘hymn sheet’, which isn’t necessarily the same as mine.

Wayne Casey

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