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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:58 pm 
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Location: Miles away from paradise, not far from hell.
The ex Berwick LO, he of the cabs licensed 100s of miles away from their licensing area, has circulated a brief synopsis of a recent meeting between The Law Commission and trade stakeholders.

The Road to Reform - c/o the ex Berwick LO

I note some trade members didn't attend, which is an interesting development. :-k

Alex

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:20 pm 
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I'm very reliably informed that the GMB didn't get an invite.

Which is totally unacceptable. [-X

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:17 pm 
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Taxi and private hire vehicle meeting
4 August 2011


Those present

Anthony Ferguson, Chair DfT Buses and Taxis Division
Rachael Watson DfT Buses and Taxis Division
Pippa Brown DfT Buses and Taxis Division
Simon Woodward DfT Legal
Frances Patterson QC Law Commission
Jessica Uguccioni Law Commission
Dai Powell DPTAC
Bill Bowling National Limousine Association
Helen Chapman Transport for London
Kris Beuret National Association of Taxi Users
Bryan Roland National Private Hire Association
Tommy McIntyre Unite the Union
Miles Bebbington Institute of Licensing
Bob Oddy Licensed Taxi Drivers Association
David Wilson PHV Reform Group
Julian Francis London Taxi Company
John Miley NALEO



1. Anthony Ferguson opened the meeting by setting the context and describing current initiatives - the Red Tape Challenge, the Transport Select Committee’s report and the Law Commission’s review. He explained that the purpose of the meeting was to hear what people thought were the attractive elements of the existing legislative framework which they would like to see retained and to hear any constructive ideas about amending those elements which were undesirable.

2. Frances Patterson explained the background to the Law Commission generally and the taxi project specifically. She said that the Commission had a statutory remit to modernise and simplify legislation and that the taxi project met the Commission’s criteria for accepting into their programme of work. The review would have a deregulatory objective but other than that they had an open mind on the way forward. The Commission intended to consult in the Spring of 2012 and they intended to produce a report and draft Bill by late 2013.

3. Bryan Roland pointed out that the House of Lords had strongly criticised Part 2 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill during its passage in 1976; he expressed the hope that the new legislation would be fit for purpose.

4. David Wilson said that he mainly represented PHV operators; he thought that many of them would prefer to see a single tier licensing system.

5. Kris Beuret welcomed the Law Commission’s review; she was pleased that her organisation had been invited and hoped the Commission would engage with her as she thought that the consumer’s voice had been overlooked in recent years in relation to taxis.

6. Myles Bebbington highlighted the “deregulatory objective” mentioned by Frances Patterson and asked how the balance would be struck between relieving burdens from business yet ensuring public safety. Frances Patterson recognised that getting that balance right was a central part of the project.

7. Anthony Ferguson asked the representatives which elements of the existing legislative framework they thought were good and should be retained.

8. John Miley highlighted local authorities’ ability to ensure that drivers were safe; he thought that there should be a consistent level of checking across the country – Enhanced Disclosures for all taxi//PHV drivers and a consistent standard of medical check.

9. Helen Chapman agreed that ensuring driver safety was vital – and an ability to check that vehicles were safe.

10. Bryan Roland thought that the existing system was so flawed as to contain nothing which was desirable to retain; he thought that allowing 300plus local authorities to invent their own conditions was inherently problematic and his aspiration was a new licensing system which set national parameters.

11. Bill Bowling thought that limousine drivers and vehicles must be checked.

12. Kris Beuret thought that the concept of accessibility for people with disabilities must be retained; taxis were a vital form of transport for many disabled people. She also acknowledged, though, that there was no real consensus, even amongst disabled people, about what constitutes an appropriate policy on accessibility.

13. Helen Chapman thought there should be a national standard for what constitutes “accessibility” for taxis.

14. David Wilson raised the question of who might administer taxis and PHVs under new legislation; he thought that local authorities could retain the role, but with more in the way of national standards – he saw no need for a new “taxi licensing commission”.

15. David Wilson also thought that chauffeurs were overlooked under the present licensing system. And he referred to the practice whereby Bed and Breakfast businesses, particularly in rural areas ran their own unofficial and unlicensed PHVs – simply because tourists needed the transport and it was unprofitable for licensed PHVs.

16. Dai Powell wanted to retain the concept of taxis and PHVs being an important element of public transport.

17. Tommy McIntyre welcomed the review. He thought that the way forward was to specify some national standards – possibly even a “national taxi badge” – he suggested looking at some of the sensible taxi byelaws around the country and drawing on them might be helpful. He thought that taxi licensing should be locally financed with local accountability.

18. John Miley thought it important that effective levels of enforcement were possible under any new licensing regime. He agreed that there should be local accountability.

19. Myles Bebbington stressed the importance of setting licence fees so as to cover costs and not make a profit.

20. Bryan Roland said that taxis and PHVs had not been part of “public transport” since 1981. That was part of the reason why they were never covered in Local Transport Plans. He raised the problem of licence fee rates and pointed to variations in licence fees around the country from £45 to £450.

21. Myles Bebbington thought it might be helpful to look at recent approaches to licensing in other areas eg The Licensing Act 2003 and gambling legislation. He thought the most appropriate approach was national standards administered locally – with a national fee structure (in the gambling legislation, the fees were set in “bands”).

22. David Wilson thought that a “national taxi badge” was a sensible way forward, but queried how enforcement might be financed; he mooted the idea of fixed penalty notices.

23. David Wilson queried why taxi rank provision should come out of taxi licence fees; he thought they should be provided out of wider local authority transport planning funds.

24. Bryan Roland pointed out that there was a fixed national fee for an MoT test – so thought that it should be possible to set a national fixed fee for a taxi test.

25. Bryan Roland also noted that under the Local Government (Miscellaneous provisions) Act 1976 responsibility for appointing stands lay with districts, but they needed permission from the Highway Authority and most districts were not Highway Authorities.

26. Kris Beuret thought it important to retain the concept of the “black cab” by which she meant a purpose build and recognisable vehicle which she thought gave comfort and reassurance to passengers.

27. Myles Bebbington agreed that there was a need for a clearly recognisable vehicle as a taxi.

28. Anthony Ferguson then asked representatives what they thought should be done differently under a new legislative framework.

29. Dai Powell thought that the legislation had not dealt adequately with accessibility issues; he wanted licensing authorities to have a better understanding of what sort of accessible vehicles were available and to see greater consistency of approach.

30. Kris Beuret pointed out that deciding what “accessibility” actually meant was problematic in itself; it went much further than people in wheelchairs – even disabled people were divided about what constituted an a satisfactory level of accessibility.

31. Bill Bowling wanted to see a much greater focus on maintenance of vehicles; he thought that the maximum three tests per year in the 1976 Act was inadequate and that the new legislation should include a dedicated inspection and maintenance regime.

32. David Wilson thought it important that licensing officers should be allowed to inspect vehicles from other areas which came into their district.

33. David Wilson also wanted to see the current restriction on PHV operators sub-contracting to operators in other districts removed.

34. David Wilson also suggested that if a two tier system were to be retained, all PHVs should carry a roof sign saying “Advance bookings only”.

35. Tommy McIntyre stressed the importance of effective enforcement, particularly across borders; he described the arrangements in Merseyside where five licensing authorities had agreed a concordat that they could enforce against all the vehicles and drivers licensed by any of those five licensing authorities.

36. Myles Bebbington pointed out that an enforcement officer in Area A would not necessarily know the conditions which were applicable in Area B, where a visiting driver was actually licensed.

37. Myles Bebbington also thought it vital that the new legislation was absolutely clear about which vehicles should be subject to licensing.

38. Bryan Roland thought the licensing and enforcement process required a high degree of expertise and suggested that licensing officers should have a specialist qualification.

39. Bryan Roland also queried the current position whereby there was no statutory obligation on drivers to clamp wheelchairs into place; he referred to two accidents which had arisen because the wheelchairs were not secured and thought this should be covered in a new law.

40. Bryan Roland also mentioned the issue of roof signs on PHVs. He thought that in daytime, they were fine. But at night an illuminated roof sign – regardless of the wording on it – acted as an invitation to passengers to approach the vehicle and ask the driver directly for a hiring.

41. Kris Beuret wanted to see better training within the industry which she thought would raise the overall image of the trade; she thought that such training could extend beyond customer care into running a small business.

42. Bryan Roland said that a new qualification was just about to go live and that a transport academy was being established. His vision for the longer term was a CPC for taxi drivers – similar to that which applied to bus drivers – possibly denoted by a “T1” category on the holder’s DVLA driving licence.

43. Myles Bebbington stressed the importance of effective enforcement being dependent upon various enforcement agencies interacting with each other; he mentioned in particular the importance of licensing officers being able to get information from DVLA.

44. Tommy McIntyre thought that there should be a qualification which applicants should achieve before entering the trade.

45. David Wilson highlighted the difficulties facing licensing authorities when fixing a table of fares for taxis; should the tariff be fixed at a level which properly recompensed the owners of brand new wheelchair accessible vehicles – in which case the people who stood to gain most from that would be the owners of older saloon cars whose costs were lower and who actually provided a worse service for passengers? It would not be possible to set a higher tariff for wheelchair accessible vehicles because that would have a direct discriminatory effect on the disabled people who had to use them. He thought it was easier to set a tariff where all taxis were wheelchair accessible or all were saloon cars. He stressed that he was not advocating a particular approach; he was simply raising the fact that it was a hugely problematic issue.

46. Bryan Roland said that there was a difference of £4.00 between the highest and lowest local authority fares (for a two mile journey). He thought that setting fares should remain a local function. He referred specifically to Chelmsford where the local authority had recognised that most journeys were around two miles so they decided to set a tariff which benefitted drivers who undertook these two mile journeys; the rate for subsequent miles was comparatively lower than many other areas.

47. Kris Beuret thought it problematic when local authorities adopted this “front-loading” approach to fixing fares as many disabled people travelled only short distances in taxis and this approach had a disproportionate effect on them. She also thought that plate values which were a feature of areas which a limit on the number of taxis distorted taxi fares.

48. John Miley thought that the setting of taxi fares must remain a local function; he thought it adequate that the proposed fares had to be advertised and that people could make representations about them.

49. John Miley also thought it anomalous that taxi operators were not licensed.

50. Tommy McIntyre rebutted Kris Beuret’s point about fares being distorted in areas with quantity controls; he said that Liverpool had a policy of controlling taxi numbers but it also had relatively low fares. He thought that the setting of numerical limits must remain with local authorities.

51. Dai Powell asked the Law Commission whether they would be looking at taxi licensing systems in other European countries. Frances Patterson said that they had an open mind about looking at other systems of licensing.

52. Helen Chapman raised the problem faced by licensing authorities when people applied for taxi/PHV driver licences but had been out of the country for some years; it was difficult to get any information about their criminal backgrounds – proper links were needed with other countries for this purpose.

53. Anthony Ferguson asked Helen Chapman whether she thought that, under a new legislative framework, there was any real need to perpetuate the distinction between London and the rest of the country.

54. Helen Chapman thought that London was different from other licensing areas – not least in terms of numbers of drivers (85,000). She thought it possible though that London could fit in with a national model – if the model was the right one. She stressed the importance of consistency and portability.

55. Kris Beuret thought that the review needed to take account of new technology; smart phones etc were changing the way in which taxis and PHVs were booked.

56. David Wilson raised the issue of CRB checks; he said that in response to his own recent survey there were 208,000 vehicle licences in issue and 313,000 driver licences. This, he thought, indicated strongly that many drivers had acquired driver licences in more than one area – and the problem was that each of those drivers would have had to get a separate CRB checks for each of the licence applications.

57. Myles Bebbington said that a scenario of three CRB checks in three months was not uncommon – a Standard Disclosure for a PHV driver licence in Area A; a Standard Disclosure for a PHV driver licence in Area B and an Enhanced Disclosure in order to undertake a school contract.

58. Bryan Roland thought that part of the problem was that a body which receives a CRB check in order to make a decision must destroy the information once that decision had been made. He said that the licensing authorities and trade were still awaiting new guidelines from the Home Office.

59. Bill Bowling highlighted what he regarded as a loophole in the wider legislation which allowed a person to drive a 16 seat bus even though they had been refused a PHV driver licence on account of an unacceptable CRB check.

60. Myles Bebbington pointed to the fact that under the Licensing Act 2003, members of a licensing panel must have been trained accordingly; he thought that this sort of provision should be built into any new taxi licensing system.

61. Bryan Roland thought that there should be consistency of approach with regard to medical checks for taxi driver licence applicants – he suggested that all applicants should be subject to a Group 2 medical assessment.

62. Anthony Ferguson said that he foresaw a situation where a new Act of Parliament would contain a number of powers to make secondary legislation or to provide guidance to licensing authorities. Frances Patterson agreed that this was the likely format for new legislation; she thought it likely, though, that when the Law Commission reported, they would have some suggestions about what might be included in the secondary legislation and guidance.



Buses and Taxis Division
August 2011

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:30 pm 
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Loads of agendas being outlined there. :shock:

But I have one thing to say, and I don't think I need to go into detail, and that's 'sell, sell, sell'. :-$

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:36 pm 
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Quote:
Anthony Ferguson, Chair DfT Buses and Taxis Division
Rachael Watson DfT Buses and Taxis Division
Pippa Brown DfT Buses and Taxis Division
Simon Woodward DfT Legal
Frances Patterson QC Law Commission
Jessica Uguccioni Law Commission
Dai Powell DPTAC
Bill Bowling National Limousine Association
Helen Chapman Transport for London
Kris Beuret National Association of Taxi Users
Bryan Roland National Private Hire Association
Tommy McIntyre Unite the Union
Miles Bebbington Institute of Licensing
Bob Oddy Licensed Taxi Drivers Association
David Wilson PHV Reform Group
Julian Francis London Taxi Company
John Miley NALEO


Who was representing taxi drivers outside London :?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:37 pm 
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toots wrote:
Quote:
Anthony Ferguson, Chair DfT Buses and Taxis Division
Rachael Watson DfT Buses and Taxis Division
Pippa Brown DfT Buses and Taxis Division
Simon Woodward DfT Legal
Frances Patterson QC Law Commission
Jessica Uguccioni Law Commission
Dai Powell DPTAC
Bill Bowling National Limousine Association
Helen Chapman Transport for London
Kris Beuret National Association of Taxi Users
Bryan Roland National Private Hire Association
Tommy McIntyre Unite the Union
Miles Bebbington Institute of Licensing
Bob Oddy Licensed Taxi Drivers Association
David Wilson PHV Reform Group
Julian Francis London Taxi Company
John Miley NALEO


Who was representing taxi drivers outside London :?

Well it appears Mr Unite who wants a national badge. ](*,)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:18 pm 
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Seems like lots of f*ckwitted ideas from people who wear many hats.

CC

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:22 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
Seems like lots of f*ckwitted ideas from people who wear many hats.

Bit like the inside of a rioter's bag.

Loads of trainers. [-(

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:24 pm 
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Not a single current cab driver amongst the list of the great and good.

CC

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:05 pm 
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Are these people to decide the future of taxis/ph and help form any new legislation?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:43 pm 
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toots wrote:
Are these people to decide the future of taxis/ph and help form any new legislation?


They think they will.......some of them deserve strait jackets, others are merely puppets of private hire companies.

CC

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:11 am 
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Quote:
Anthony Ferguson, Chair DfT Buses and Taxis Division

New 2 the job playing it by ear

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:13 am 
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Quote:
Rachael Watson DfT Buses and Taxis Division
Another newbe still feeling her way around... bound to make many mistakes

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:17 am 
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Quote:
Pippa Brown DfT Buses and Taxis Division
has her own views on what the taxi trade should be.... should have been got rid of long ago... very weird person

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:22 am 
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Quote:
Simon Woodward DfT Legal
lawyer a person who interprets the law and receivers a extremely good salary whatever the outcome

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