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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:55 pm 
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I had a few sessions, [four altogether - 3 on Wednesday and 1 on Thursday] with the Law Commission team that attended the Coventry Taxi Exhibition at the Ricoh Arena and apparently during one of those sessions I was sitting with a group that amongst others included the Numero Uno guy from Delta in the Merseyside area. I didn’t know who he was and it didn’t faze me, although others that knew him commented on the fact.

The three that attended from the Law Commission were Richard Percival [Team manager, Public law team - RP], Jessica Uguccioni [Team lawyer, Public law team – JU] and Vindelyn Smith-Hillman [Economic adviser –VSM]. The Commissioner for this team is Frances Patterson QC who did not attend.

On Wednesday morning they all started very neatly behind a long table, almost akin to Catholic priests about to hear confessions during Lent with long queues of sinners waiting their turn with their declarations on the LCs publication, the multi-sinfulness of the HC and PH trades and in particular those dastardly mortal sinners know as licensing officers. But with the sheer volume of confessors clamouring for a chance to have their say, this orderly approach was soon abandoned by both RP and JU, as they joined the throngs of humble drivers, proprietors, PH operators, licensing officers and even taxi vehicle retailers, all wishing to have an input on the subject of reforming the law on taxi and private hire services.

Groups were formed from the chairs previously used as a waiting area and RP and JU took separate discussion groups of 3-10 people all day long with the clamour only dying down on Thursday afternoon at about 3.45pm as the exhibition was winding down. This was the only approach that they could take bearing in mind the volume of people wanting to speak to them.

The subjects tackled were manifold as you might expect.

Ranks and their absence from the LC’s consultation paper was a constant source of complaint, to which they answered that the original consultation paper was some 500 pages long and they had to dilute it, with ranks being excluded from the final draft. I said that at least they could have published the whole 500 pages online if not in paper format. There were numerous instances given about the positioning of ranks down side streets out of view of the public and one instance of just two rank spaces in a LA with 200 Hackneys.

There idea of part-time taxi licences for busy periods was copied from Victoria, Australia. That Australian system allows for a limitation on numbers of taxis, with the part-timers filling the void on Friday and Saturday nights, but not allowed to work even on a dispatch system at all other times of the week. My immediate though was again enforcement. The Australian method probably includes robust enforcement, the type of enforcement that will never happen here and with the ‘brothers’ not minded to object to transgressions during the week by their ‘brothers’ if such a system were to ever rear its ugly head here, this is definitely a non-starter.

There were many complaints about licensing officers and their idiosyncrasies from up and down the country. One of the LC team was in favour of colour policies, while the other was against. Democracy indeed within this LC team, but they need to get that one sorted so they are of one voice.

We also talked about SUD surveys and the LC’s concept about them was not what I was expecting. I was expecting that they were against these surveys as they are a means of limiting numbers. Not so. Their thinking is that they don’t understand the reasoning behind the whole concept of unmet demand, let alone significant unmet demand in the taxi service, which is what these surveys are commissioned to establish. They maintain that as with other forms of transport, buses, trains, planes, ships, there may be a need at times to wait for service. Why should the taxi service be an instant service and if it’s not instant, then there is an unmet demand? They did not understand this perception of instant, on the street, taxi availability as the SUD survey and the Transport Act 1985 allude to.

Limitation of numbers was also a very heavily subscribed topic. They are not against limitation of numbers, or so they say, but they have not heard convincing and compelling evidence yet as to the correct reasons for doing so. Traffic congestion may be a reason for looking at this subject, as also pollution may be. One taxi vehicle dealer brought up a very good reason why numbers should be limited which RP was very interested in hearing and made copious notes of. Something I too had not thought of in the long term. I’m sure this Holy Grail will be discussed much, much more during the consultation.

The pseudo-serfdom of PH drivers was brought up on a number of occasions and the employment status of these drivers too, the later not being part of their remit, which both RP and JU stated. They were however mildly interested in the working tax credits that more and more drivers appear to be claiming due to the low earnings within the trades.

National standards for vehicles were also discussed, but they admitted that the starting point for such a standard had yet to be established. They did however state, that the standard for PHVs whatever that will be, would be the maximum standard allowed for PHVs, but that maximum standard for PHVs would be the minimum standard for taxis. I just don’t understand that train of thought, as I believe the public have a right to the same standard of vehicle fitness throughout the land, whether that is a taxi or PHV.

The most contentious point by far though was that they believe there should be nothing wrong with a taxi / HC licensed in LA Z working in any LA in the country, provided that they only work on dispatch systems / PH circuits. Their thinking is that if vehicle and driver standards are the same throughout the land then, why would anybody wish to license vehicles other than in the LA they wished to work in? I explained that it was about working where the ‘honeypot’ is at weekends and licensing being a local thing. Even the taxi vehicle dealer took exception to this concept.

There was also some discussion about the PH knowledge test that some councils use and the LC’s belief that they should be scrapped. The general feeling was that they should be kept as some drivers have no clue as to where they are going.

There were many other topics discussed, but these were the main ones.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:01 pm 
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Quote:
One taxi vehicle dealer brought up a very good reason why numbers should be limited which RP was very interested in hearing and made copious notes of.

Is this panacea a secret? :?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:25 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
Quote:
One taxi vehicle dealer brought up a very good reason why numbers should be limited which RP was very interested in hearing and made copious notes of.

Is this panacea a secret? :?

Not really, why do you ask?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:26 pm 
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Because you didn't say what the reason was BC.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:37 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
Is this panacea a secret? :?


If it was a panacea then he would have said :-#


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:20 pm 
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The taxi vehicle retailer guy said that years ago he had a choice of about ten finance companies that would do business financing taxi-cab purchases. He now has a choice of two.

He maintained that if the cab trade continued to evovle as it has been in recent years and national deregulation of taxi numbers would be legislated for, then the remaining two finance companies may well pull out of the market too, as the there would not be sufficient earnings in the trade to justify lendings to taxi proprietors. He also cited the alarming increase in repossessed taxis in recent times.

The LC guys were not too pleased with that scenario and the lack of investment that that would precipitate did not go down too well with them.

Don't forget the money go round; it matters.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:28 pm 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
The taxi vehicle retailer guy said that years ago he had a choice of about ten finance companies that would do business financing taxi-cab purchases. He now has a choice of two.


Nothing to do with the credit crunch, perchance?

Quote:
He maintained that if the cab trade continued to evovle as it has been in recent years and national deregulation of taxi numbers would be legislated for, then the remaining two finance companies may well pull out of the market too, as the there would not be sufficient earnings in the trade to justify lendings to taxi proprietors. He also cited the alarming increase in repossessed taxis in recent times.


So you're saying they only lend in restricted areas now?

And they won't lend to the PH sector at all, presumably?

Quote:
The LC guys were not too pleased with that scenario and the lack of investment that that would precipitate did not go down too well with them.


But OK for the PH sector, presumably.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:37 pm 
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Dusty Bin wrote:
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
The taxi vehicle retailer guy said that years ago he had a choice of about ten finance companies that would do business financing taxi-cab purchases. He now has a choice of two.

Nothing to do with the credit crunch, perchance?
Quote:
He maintained that if the cab trade continued to evovle as it has been in recent years and national deregulation of taxi numbers would be legislated for, then the remaining two finance companies may well pull out of the market too, as the there would not be sufficient earnings in the trade to justify lendings to taxi proprietors. He also cited the alarming increase in repossessed taxis in recent times.

So you're saying they only lend in restricted areas now?

And they won't lend to the PH sector at all, presumably?
Quote:
The LC guys were not too pleased with that scenario and the lack of investment that that would precipitate did not go down too well with them.

But OK for the PH sector, presumably.

Don't shoot the messenger.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:39 pm 
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Talking of messages BC....

Have you checked yours?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:43 pm 
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Was this chap also saying that only two finance companies deal with the 100% unrestricted PH trade? Cos if he did he would be telling fibs. [-X

People can or can't get credit for a number of reasons, a restricted taxi market is not one of them.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:43 pm 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
Don't shoot the messenger.

You make a good point. Thanks for passing that info on. =D>

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:59 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
Was this chap also saying that only two finance companies deal with the 100% unrestricted PH trade? Cos if he did he would be telling fibs. [-X

People can or can't get credit for a number of reasons, a restricted taxi market is not one of them.

The chap told it as he saw it. After all he is the taxi retailer not you or me.

As I said don't shoot the messenger.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:03 pm 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
Sussex wrote:
Was this chap also saying that only two finance companies deal with the 100% unrestricted PH trade? Cos if he did he would be telling fibs. [-X

People can or can't get credit for a number of reasons, a restricted taxi market is not one of them.

The chap told it as he saw it. After all he is the taxi retailer not you or me.

As I said don't shoot the messenger.

The exact same argument has been on here before.... they refuse to accept it..... mainly because they are in the position to arrange their own finances....... So if other people can't get finance their happy...... because they can't enter the private hire trade.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:06 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
Was this chap also saying that only two finance companies deal with the 100% unrestricted PH trade? Cos if he did he would be telling fibs. [-X

People can or can't get credit for a number of reasons, a restricted taxi market is not one of them.

You should read what is written, properly, he said there were only two companies that he could do finance with

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:37 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
Don't shoot the messenger.

You make a good point. Thanks for passing that info on. =D>


Indeed, but Brummers described it as a "very good reason", so I assumed he'd thought it through. :roll:

And indeed the credit crunch is perhaps a more relevant reason for some of the finance providers pulling out of the market.

I always thought that it looked a bit ropy financially. For example, I got a brand new £20k motor on HP and didn't pay a penny (no deposit) until I'd had it for a month. Even though they won't do this if somone has a bad credit rating, it always looked a bit too risky to me.

Also, the proviso in the consumer credit legislation (?) that allows a motor bought on HP to be returned after half the repayments wouldn't have made much financial sense either - an ex-taxi bought at £15k, say, with maybe 120,000 on the clock handed back after two-and-a-half years :shock: Probably worth a couple of grand, yet still £7k plus outstanding on the agreement. Some people I know did that with several different cars, and the finance companies must have taken a big hit on all of them, yet the owners just went to another provider and got the same deal.

Of course, they'll have made money on most of the loans, but I suspect it was all just another aspect of the free and easy credit market, and that some kind of, er, realignment would be necessary in the long term, so the fact that quite a few of the finance companies have exited the market hardly seems a surprise.

An increase in repossessions doesn't seem any kind of compelling evidence either, in view of the economic climate.

Interesting also if they're saying that they won't loan using the vehicle as security in unrestricted areas while in apparently rock solid restricted areas you can't get a loan secured against the plate #-o


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