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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Having read through the report and participated in quite a few discussions on here I came to realise that the entire exercise is a waste of time because it is looking at Hackney and PH and not at Urban and Rural it is very clear that the market for and the requirements of the taxi trade in large towns and cities is very different.

The legislation is doomed from the start because a single cab act cannot reconcile the two completely different markets.

firstly in rural areas Hackneys cannot make a living on rank work and in areas like mine rank work makes up less than 10% of total takings in many cases so most Hackneys are effectively PH who also can rank up the specs are exactly the same in many cases whereas in larger Urban areas there is a need for vehicles who are available on ranks 24 hours a day

secondly in Rural areas councils promote and encourage community transport schemes which take away the majority of the limited market in disabled access so the provision for WAV's is almost entirely superfluous in major urban areas it is necessary for such provision as there is a demand for disabled/wheelchair access transport

thirdly vehicles in rural/semi rural areas the market requires taxis to be saloon cars where there is a large elderly population who cannot get into wav's so the provision of such vehicles is undesireable as well as the smaller roads being unsuitable for larger Wav style vehicles. In larger urban areas there is the need for such vehicles to be clearly and easily recogniseable so an all wav fleet is more suited to the market where there is a much higher proportion of younger more agile customers


So I have decided that the debate between one tier and two tier systems and a lot of the other discussions are useless what is needed is two seperate acts

act 1 to cover all Urban/Metropolitain areas including London and Plymouth based on the needs of the Urban market with a 2 tier system

Act 2 to cover all rural/semi rural areas where the needs are far different with perhaps a single tier system

I am sure that most of you will dissagree but before you start shooting this down in flames think about it I have for some time and realised that I'm right

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:24 pm 
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I have heard many drivers discussing the rural system. There used to be a 'rural plate' in force, where rural ph vehicles could take passing fares or flag downs in rural villages where no hackneys or ranks existed, but this was scrapped years ago. Though this would help the ph, how would it effect rural hacks. Assuming as it would appear than hacks are getting less work on the ranks due to numbers, then would it be of much benefit to both parties?

It would appear that the main imbalance in rural areas are the volunteer drivers whom seem to be taking most of the pre-booked work away from the PH cars, and they feel there hands are tied when they get a village flag down as they have to call them first whilst standing beside the only taxi in the area. If the system was in place in rural areas, it would have to have some strict guidelines as to not effect the hacks, but allow ph to pick up where to rank exists.Of course, something then has to be done regarding the volunteers, who are working for effectively petrol money!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:35 pm 
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ram wrote:
I have heard many drivers discussing the rural system. There used to be a 'rural plate' in force, where rural ph vehicles could take passing fares or flag downs in rural villages where no hackneys or ranks existed, but this was scrapped years ago. Though this would help the ph, how would it effect rural hacks. Assuming as it would appear than hacks are getting less work on the ranks due to numbers, then would it be of much benefit to both parties?

It would appear that the main imbalance in rural areas are the volunteer drivers whom seem to be taking most of the pre-booked work away from the PH cars, and they feel there hands are tied when they get a village flag down as they have to call them first whilst standing beside the only taxi in the area. If the system was in place in rural areas, it would have to have some strict guidelines as to not effect the hacks, but allow ph to pick up where to rank exists.Of course, something then has to be done regarding the volunteers, who are working for effectively petrol money!


43 pence per mile is more than just petrol money...and some of them charge it at 43ppm per customer in the car, that could turn it into £1.72 for a full 4 seater. a bunch of thieving crims in a lot of cases :x


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:29 pm 
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Mr edders23 why didn't you just send that without the 'I didn't want to send' stuff?

In fact you can still send it now, in the hope the LC treat the likes of you in the same way as the so-called big boys.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:00 pm 
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edders23 wrote:
I am sure that most of you will dissagree but before you start shooting this down in flames think about it I have for some time and realised that I'm right

In that case you should have sent it into the LC, if only because you believe that you are right.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:32 pm 
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edders23 wrote:
Having read through the report and participated in quite a few discussions on here I came to realise that the entire exercise is a waste of time because it is looking at Hackney and PH and not at Urban and Rural it is very clear that the market for and the requirements of the taxi trade in large towns and cities is very different.

The legislation is doomed from the start because a single cab act cannot reconcile the two completely different markets.

firstly in rural areas Hackneys cannot make a living on rank work and in areas like mine rank work makes up less than 10% of total takings in many cases so most Hackneys are effectively PH who also can rank up the specs are exactly the same in many cases whereas in larger Urban areas there is a need for vehicles who are available on ranks 24 hours a day

secondly in Rural areas councils promote and encourage community transport schemes which take away the majority of the limited market in disabled access so the provision for WAV's is almost entirely superfluous in major urban areas it is necessary for such provision as there is a demand for disabled/wheelchair access transport

thirdly vehicles in rural/semi rural areas the market requires taxis to be saloon cars where there is a large elderly population who cannot get into wav's so the provision of such vehicles is undesireable as well as the smaller roads being unsuitable for larger Wav style vehicles. In larger urban areas there is the need for such vehicles to be clearly and easily recogniseable so an all wav fleet is more suited to the market where there is a much higher proportion of younger more agile customers


So I have decided that the debate between one tier and two tier systems and a lot of the other discussions are useless what is needed is two seperate acts

act 1 to cover all Urban/Metropolitain areas including London and Plymouth based on the needs of the Urban market with a 2 tier system

Act 2 to cover all rural/semi rural areas where the needs are far different with perhaps a single tier system

I am sure that most of you will dissagree but before you start shooting this down in flames think about it I have for some time and realised that I'm right


I stated as much in my response, but I disagree about a difference being needed between urban and rural - current law has proved that

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:52 pm 
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I think in many rural areas it's a pseudo one-tier system, along the lines I like, but clearly the LC have bottled proposing.

That said I think what comes out in a new act will have little effect on rural areas compared with urban one.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:55 am 
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I live in a village controlled by one of 3 local rural/semi rural LA. There are 4 towns within that LA each with their own cabs firms and ranks. The towns are between 5 and 10 miles apart. HC's can rank and work anywhere within this LA

My village is also within 1 mile of the borders of 2 other rural/semi rural LA's and the urban LA which is where I work p/t as a PH and HC driver. The other 2 rural LA's also have their own cab firms and ranks and the HC's can work anywhere within the LA using any rank. None of the rural LA's have a limit on the number of HC's and the HC's outnumber PH. In reality, the PH's tend to be only airport transfer businesses and exec/chauffer hire.

In the urban LA where I work, the number of HC's is fixed. PH's that work within the LA have to use a meter set at the same rate as HC's. Both PH's and HC's are allowed to charge a .60p Extra (.75p after midnight) for "telephone" bookings to help cover the cost of travelling to the pick up point.

In the urban LA, the maximum journey distance from edge to edge is about 6.3 and on tarif 1 the fare would be about £13.30 plus .60p booking fee. In the LA I live, border to border is about 19 miles and the fare tarif 1 would be £36 approx. Both these calcs using www.taxiroute.co.uk.

Is there a difference between the urban and semirural/rural trade? Very much so. The urban trade is increasingly populated by "non locals" whereas the rural/semi rural trade is very much "local".

In the urban area there is one HC per 1800 head of population. For PH there 1 PH per 842 head of population. In the LA I live, there is 1 "taxi" per 503 head of population.

Copied and Google Translated from www.licence-taxi.fr

"The supply of taxi license is strictly regulated in France. For municipalities with less than 100,000 inhabitants, the number of licenses to be issued is limited to 50, that is to say, a taxi license for 2000 people. For municipalities that have between 100 001 and 500 000 inhabitants, a taxi license is issued to serve 1,500 residents and municipalities that have more than 500,000 inhabitants, the municipality may issue a license to taxi per 1000 inhabitants"

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:26 am 
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Quote:
PH's that work within the LA have to use a meter set at the same rate as HC's.


I believe local councils set hackney local fares and private hire firms set their own fares(nothing to do with council)

I am not the most educated on hackney/private hire so I will either be shot down in flames or maybe someone will agree with me :shock:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:41 am 
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Andy

You are of course correct. What I should have made clear is that if a PH in the district chooses to fit a meter, which it doesn't have to, the meter will be set at the same fare tarif as a HC. Incidentlally, one of the adjacent rural LA's has a ruling that if a PH is fitted with a meter, the meter must not say For Hire when not enagaged.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:22 pm 
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2 Jobs wrote:
Andy

You are of course correct. What I should have made clear is that if a PH in the district chooses to fit a meter, which it doesn't have to, the meter will be set at the same fare tarif as a HC. Incidentlally, one of the adjacent rural LA's has a ruling that if a PH is fitted with a meter, the meter must not say For Hire when not enagaged.

There is nothing to say that a private hire vehicle with a meter in has to be set at the same rate as the Hackney tariff... in fact they can set whatever tariff they want.... But if they are using a metre in this way then the council has a responsibility to make sure that it is set correctly.... and sealed

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:27 pm 
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If PH is a private contract between the PH operator and the PH Customer, the operator should surely be the one advising the customer of the cost prior to the journey? :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:32 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
If PH is a private contract between the PH operator and the PH Customer, the operator should surely be the one advising the customer of the cost prior to the journey? :wink:

I was only talking about meters :D

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:21 pm 
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andycable wrote:
Quote:
PH's that work within the LA have to use a meter set at the same rate as HC's.


I believe local councils set hackney local fares and private hire firms set their own fares(nothing to do with council)

I am not the most educated on hackney/private hire so I will either be shot down in flames or maybe someone will agree with me :shock:


Actually in my area Hackneys are also free to set their own rates but most don't because they are afraid customers won't use them if their meters have a different flag

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:52 am 
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In general the only national standard regarding meters/fares is that you can't charge more than what the council metered rate would be, regardless of whether it is PH or HC.

Other than that LA's are free to set their own bylaws over whether or not meters have to be fitted, used or set to the councils rates. There may be an exception for PH that meters don't have to be fitted and the LA can't insist they are, and it may also be national law that all HC must have meters fitted, however ;

In my LA PH must have a meter fitted for the pit test, this can be set at any rate but must not be greater than the councils rates. After the pit test PH can remove the meter if they wish to do so (none do) if they remove the meter they can still only charge for up to what the metered rate would have been. HC must have fitted and use at all times a meter set to the LA rates, but can charge any amount up to the total shown on the meter.


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