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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:45 pm 
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Uber faces new pressure from crowdfunded VAT case

UK lawyer claims app should be collecting tax and providing receipts to passengers

The global ride-hailing group could be forced to pay hundreds of millions of pounds in backdated VAT if it loses the case © Reuters

On the surface, the stakes in Uber’s latest UK legal wrangle look surprisingly small: an activist tax barrister is relying on crowdfunding for a High Court claim demanding a VAT receipt worth a grand total of 56p.But if Jolyon Maugham QC wins, the case could force Uber, the global ride-hailing group, to pay hundreds of millions in backdated VAT to the UK tax authorities — adding to the pressure on what is already the most lossmaking private company in the history of “big tech”.

Mr Maugham heads up the Good Law Project, which brings strategic legal challenges to build the case for changes to the law. This case is part of a larger effort to address complaints that European governments have been too willing to let tech groups, including Amazon, Uber and Google, pay relatively little tax even as they generate substantial revenues.

The allegations in the case are small beer. Mr Maugham, a barrister at Devereux Chambers, argues that Uber was providing him with a service when he took a £6.34 ride from his office to meet a client, and is therefore obliged to provide him with a VAT receipt. If Uber was deemed to be a service provider, it would theoretically have to collect VAT of 20 per cent of every fare and give it to HM Revenue & Customs.

Last week Mr Maugham’s lawyers asked the High Court to force the company to provide him with a VAT receipt so that he can claim the money back from HMRC because the ride was a business expense. After National Insurance and income tax deductions, the barrister says he would have been 56p better off and is therefore claiming this in costs, plus the court fee of £563.Uber says it has no obligation to collect VAT or provide a receipt. It argues that it is only acting as an agent for self-employed drivers, rather than a service provider. Jolyon Maugham says Uber was providing a service when he took a ride, and is therefore obliged to provide him with a VAT receipt, which he can use to claim tax deductions because the journey was a business expense

A spokesman for Uber said: “Drivers who use our app provide transportation services to passengers and will be registered for VAT if they meet the threshold set by government.” The VAT threshold is £85,000, an income most Uber drivers are unlikely to cross.

“This has been the case across the taxi and private hire industry for decades. Black cab drivers, and the apps they use, operate in exactly the same way. This claim is fundamentally flawed on a number of levels,” Uber added.

In theory, if Mr Maugham were to win, HMRC would then be able to seek VAT payments for all of the rides Uber provided for the past four years.

He says that figure could be “substantial” based on publicly disclosed information about the number of drivers and their average weekly earnings. “It is perfectly plausible it could be £1bn,” he said. If other European tax authorities followed suit, there could be knock-on effects, increasing Uber’s potential bill, he adds.

Lawyers for Mr Maugham believe their hand has been strengthened by a UK employment tribunal ruling last year that Uber drivers were “workers” and therefore entitled to sick pay and paid holiday. In that case, the tribunal wrote: “The notion that Uber in London is a mosaic of 30,000 small businesses linked by a common ‘platform’ is to our minds faintly ridiculous.

”For Mr Maugham, the main question at stake is one of public trust and the need for large businesses to set an example by paying their taxes.

In a witness statement filed with the High Court, he said the perception was widespread “that we in the United Kingdom tolerate US tech companies, in particular, engaging in financially meaningful tax avoidance. I believe this public perception damages what is described as ‘tax morale’ — the propensity of others to pay their taxes.

”HMRC declined to comment on the pending litigation, but said: “We take any claims of unfair VAT competition extremely seriously.”

Mr Maugham and the Good Law Project have raised £107,650 on CrowdJustice, a crowdfunding site, to bring the case, including a donation of £20,000 made by an organisation “connected with the black cab trade”. London’s cabbies have long opposed Uber, arguing it competes unfairly.

Mr Maugham’s solicitors, Edwin Coe, have applied for a cap on legal costs so he can pursue the case without incurring huge liabilities.

David Green, a senior partner at Edwin Coe, explained: “This is a case of public interest and with public consequences.”

https://www.ft.com/content/19c1afe8-5a8 ... df1b0c3220

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:32 am 
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captain cab wrote:
adding to the pressure on what is already the most lossmaking private company in the history of “big tech”.

That is something that needs to be highlighted time and time again.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:41 am 
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Deja vu

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:46 am 
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The fact that Uber say they act as an agent for the "millions" of drivers means they must have a turnover in excess of the VAT threshold and therefore have to pay vat on that turnover.

Punter pays a fare of say £10. The VAT on that £10 is about £1.60. Multiply that by the millions Uber have taken over the years, that's a lot of vat for them to find.

Let's insert the name of an actor or football player's agent in the case instead of Uber. That agent acts in the same way as Uber, getting work for the player or actor. Millions of £££s may be involved. That agent has to be registered and has to pay VAT on the income. simple really. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:51 am 
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roythebus wrote:
The fact that Uber say they act as an agent for the "millions" of drivers means they must have a turnover in excess of the VAT threshold and therefore have to pay vat on that turnover.

Punter pays a fare of say £10. The VAT on that £10 is about £1.60. Multiply that by the millions Uber have taken over the years, that's a lot of vat for them to find.

Let's insert the name of an actor or football player's agent in the case instead of Uber. That agent acts in the same way as Uber, getting work for the player or actor. Millions of £££s may be involved. That agent has to be registered and has to pay VAT on the income. simple really. :)

If they act as agent then they have to account for vat on the amount they get from the driver not the customer.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:38 pm 
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grandad wrote:
roythebus wrote:
The fact that Uber say they act as an agent for the "millions" of drivers means they must have a turnover in excess of the VAT threshold and therefore have to pay vat on that turnover.

Punter pays a fare of say £10. The VAT on that £10 is about £1.60. Multiply that by the millions Uber have taken over the years, that's a lot of vat for them to find.

Let's insert the name of an actor or football player's agent in the case instead of Uber. That agent acts in the same way as Uber, getting work for the player or actor. Millions of £££s may be involved. That agent has to be registered and has to pay VAT on the income. simple really. :)

If they act as agent then they have to account for vat on the amount they get from the driver not the customer.



Why if they are just an agent do all transactions of payments go through Uber bank account,this means they are directly paying the driver not the passenger,in other words admitting they employ the driver and accordingly should be paying NI contributions,operate a paye system,give paid holidays and sick pay and pay VAT on their total turnover.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:44 pm 
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heathcote wrote:


Why if they are just an agent do all transactions of payments go through Uber bank account,this means they are directly paying the driver not the passenger,in other words admitting they employ the driver and accordingly should be paying NI contributions,operate a paye system,give paid holidays and sick pay and pay VAT on their total turnover.

It doesn't work like that.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:56 pm 
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If you act as an agent for the drivers then the driver gets the full fare and pays the agent his commission. In this case the agents commission it paid by the driver before receiving the full amount, but that doesn't matter. So UBER only receive the commission part of the fare. So assuming that the total of all commission due is above the VAT threshold then VAT is due on that amount. To confuse things further UBER may well be registered for VAT in Holland and they would then pay the VAT in Holland and not here. As the driver is most probably not reaching the VAT threshold himself he wont be registered for VAT so the full fare will not be subject to VAT and the driver can't issue a VAT receipt.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:15 pm 
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grandad wrote:
If you act as an agent for the drivers then the driver gets the full fare and pays the agent his commission. In this case the agents commission it paid by the driver before receiving the full amount, but that doesn't matter. So UBER only receive the commission part of the fare. So assuming that the total of all commission due is above the VAT threshold then VAT is due on that amount. To confuse things further UBER may well be registered for VAT in Holland and they would then pay the VAT in Holland and not here. As the driver is most probably not reaching the VAT threshold himself he wont be registered for VAT so the full fare will not be subject to VAT and the driver can't issue a VAT receipt.



As a customer of any company in the UK are you not entitled to a VAT receipt so you can claim VAT back as a business expense.
Going off your explanation which I am not saying is incorrect Uber /driver must provide a VAT receipt to a passenger at the point of/end of journey payment on demand.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:04 pm 
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heathcote wrote:
grandad wrote:
If you act as an agent for the drivers then the driver gets the full fare and pays the agent his commission. In this case the agents commission it paid by the driver before receiving the full amount, but that doesn't matter. So UBER only receive the commission part of the fare. So assuming that the total of all commission due is above the VAT threshold then VAT is due on that amount. To confuse things further UBER may well be registered for VAT in Holland and they would then pay the VAT in Holland and not here. As the driver is most probably not reaching the VAT threshold himself he wont be registered for VAT so the full fare will not be subject to VAT and the driver can't issue a VAT receipt.



As a customer of any company in the UK are you not entitled to a VAT receipt so you can claim VAT back as a business expense.
Going off your explanation which I am not saying is incorrect Uber /driver must provide a VAT receipt to a passenger at the point of/end of journey payment on demand.

The driver receives all the money (less the UBER commission) and it doesn't matter who actually collects the money. The driver is not VAT registered so there is no VAT element in the fare so the driver can't issue a VAT receipt because he doesn't have a VAT number.
It is the same for you. I assume that you are not VAT registered so you don't issue VAT receipts.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:17 pm 
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grandad wrote:
heathcote wrote:
grandad wrote:
If you act as an agent for the drivers then the driver gets the full fare and pays the agent his commission. In this case the agents commission it paid by the driver before receiving the full amount, but that doesn't matter. So UBER only receive the commission part of the fare. So assuming that the total of all commission due is above the VAT threshold then VAT is due on that amount. To confuse things further UBER may well be registered for VAT in Holland and they would then pay the VAT in Holland and not here. As the driver is most probably not reaching the VAT threshold himself he wont be registered for VAT so the full fare will not be subject to VAT and the driver can't issue a VAT receipt.



As a customer of any company in the UK are you not entitled to a VAT receipt so you can claim VAT back as a business expense.
Going off your explanation which I am not saying is incorrect Uber /driver must provide a VAT receipt to a passenger at the point of/end of journey payment on demand.

The driver receives all the money (less the UBER commission) and it doesn't matter who actually collects the money. The driver is not VAT registered so there is no VAT element in the fare so the driver can't issue a VAT receipt because he doesn't have a VAT number.
It is the same for you. I assume that you are not VAT registered so you don't issue VAT receipts.

Passenger pays UBER..UBER has to issue a receipt..if VAT registered it must be a VAT receipt.

If you do not issue a receipt then that is fraud...UBER can not use the drivers tax allowance..
the receipt could say VAT included..

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:46 pm 
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MR T wrote:
Deja vu



you can say that again :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:38 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
MR T wrote:
Deja vu



you can say that again :lol:

I get a funny feeling he said it before..........

:roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:46 pm 
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How can it run it a loss when it's valued is estimated at between $25 Billion and $70 billion...feck me, how could be worth that if it never made money?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:13 am 
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Some good points there, but the way I see it is that on a card sale with Uber, presumably Uber have the card number so is "the person" at the point of sale that receives the money because they have also taken the booking, and are therefore liable to issue a vat receipt and to collect and pay the vat due.

I would suggest it's not often an Uber driver gets a cash fare unless he gets that on his own account. I wonder how many of their drivers have a card reader to take card payments in the car? Knowing Uber, they collect all the money and the driver gets his dues minus their "commission". Therefore, to all intents and purposes he is employed by them, but that's another case as we all know. 8)


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