Taxi Driver Online

UK cab trade debate and advice
It is currently Sat Apr 25, 2026 4:08 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:11 pm
Posts: 8119
Location: A Villa in Aston NO MORE!
lawman wrote:
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
300 Now Qualify As Cabbies

Whenever I see an article like this it reminds me of Forrest Gump.

I've been to an induction course for NVQ & it was like sitting with loads of Forrest Gumps.

I was just waiting for one of them to say;

My momma always said, "Life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get."

I dread taking the course, which I will eventually have to.

Why is it all about the NVQ now ? wotever happened to the marvelous Btec which cost us billions?

Isn't the old Btec now the NVQ?

_________________
Kind regards,

Brummie Cabbie.

Type a message, post your news,
Disagree with other members' views;
But please, do have some decorum,
When debating on the TDO Forum.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 14152
Location: Wirral
gusmac wrote:
toots wrote:
gusmac wrote:
toots wrote:
It's your own fault you got a cr@p course cos you didn't contribute to it in the first place and you're still doing nothing about it other than complaining. As the old saying goes 'if you put nowt in you get nowt out'. The other thing is given the choice of a fast track training company or a proper provider most drivers are opting for the fast track method so their own actions are devaluing the qualification.

If you're not happy with the course ask your reps to do something about it and come up with an appropriate course or is it that taxi drivers believe there is nothing out there that they can learn?


Why should it be our job to provide the course content?
The course provider should already have this in place before offering the course and taking payment for it.
When someone phones me for a lift, I don't expect them to supply their own car.


You're right and they have provided the course content and the trade don't like it. With this kind of attitude you deserve all the sh*te content they've put in it.


So you see nothing wrong with some fly by night offering an irrelevant or crap course, so long as those forced to take the course actually teach each other something? :shock:


Is that what I said or have ever said? Don't twist things. My views regarding these courses are well documented on this site. If drivers prefer to go with fly by night training companies that is their choice. There are good providers out there that offer a quality course.

The courses can be adjusted if people from the trade actually bothered to do something about it. I'm not suggesting that individual taxi drivers do something I'm suggesting that the drivers contact their reps and ask them to do something.

_________________
Note to self: Just because it pops into my head does NOT mean it should come out of my mouth!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 14152
Location: Wirral
Quote:
Why is it all about the NVQ now ? wotever happened to the marvelous Btec which cost us billions?


I thought you'd got lost on a golf course somewhere. How wrong I am you appear to only have something to say when the training posts appear. Not really surprised about that tho :wink:

Quote:
Isn't the old Btec now the NVQ?


No it's not. The Btec/VRQ is a seperate qualification from the NVQ. The NVQ is funded the Btec/VRQ is not. To simplify things you could look at the Btec/VRQ as the knowledge that is taught in a classroom and the NVQ is proof of competance provided by assessment and assignments/witness testimony.

Quote:
PS.

What is your angle on this?

You seem to be fully wound up on this topic!!

Are you a tutor, assessor, professor or Emeritus Professor?


It has been my opinion for a long time that the trade should have a proper professional qualification and whilst I have agreed on several ocassions that the NVQ is perhaps not the best qualification to have it is the only one we've got. I'm not fully wound up on this topic, but, to be fair it's the same recycled cr@p from drivers every time somebody posts about sucessful drivers obtaining their qualifications. Yes I am an assessor.

_________________
Note to self: Just because it pops into my head does NOT mean it should come out of my mouth!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:17 am
Posts: 598
Location: West Yorkshire
Does NVQ stand for not very quick :?:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:06 pm
Posts: 24391
Location: Twixt Heaven and Hell, but nearest Hell
tcabbie wrote:
Does NVQ stand for not very quick :?:


Not Very Qualified?

just 300? - isnt that a bit "Spartan"?... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

_________________
Of all the things ive lost, i miss my mind the most


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:31 pm
Posts: 12045
Location: Aberdeen
toots wrote:
gusmac wrote:
toots wrote:
gusmac wrote:
toots wrote:
It's your own fault you got a cr@p course cos you didn't contribute to it in the first place and you're still doing nothing about it other than complaining. As the old saying goes 'if you put nowt in you get nowt out'. The other thing is given the choice of a fast track training company or a proper provider most drivers are opting for the fast track method so their own actions are devaluing the qualification.

If you're not happy with the course ask your reps to do something about it and come up with an appropriate course or is it that taxi drivers believe there is nothing out there that they can learn?


Why should it be our job to provide the course content?
The course provider should already have this in place before offering the course and taking payment for it.
When someone phones me for a lift, I don't expect them to supply their own car.


You're right and they have provided the course content and the trade don't like it. With this kind of attitude you deserve all the sh*te content they've put in it.


So you see nothing wrong with some fly by night offering an irrelevant or crap course, so long as those forced to take the course actually teach each other something? :shock:


Is that what I said or have ever said? Don't twist things. My views regarding these courses are well documented on this site. If drivers prefer to go with fly by night training companies that is their choice. There are good providers out there that offer a quality course.

The courses can be adjusted if people from the trade actually bothered to do something about it. I'm not suggesting that individual taxi drivers do something I'm suggesting that the drivers contact their reps and ask them to do something.


If these are quality courses and from good providers, why should the trade need to tell them anything? They are providing their service for a great deal of money. It's their job to get it right, not ours.
You don't walk into a restaurant and expect to have to show the chef how to cook FFS.

_________________
Image
http://wingsoverscotland.com/ http://www.newsnetscotland.com/
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:54 am 
You've got to love this little gem, I was talking to a bin man last night and wait for it,



















































































































































































The Council are bringing in an NVQ on how to empty bins, when is this debacle going to stop? You have a man along with all the other employees who's been employed by the Council for 20 years + on the cleansing department, they got told last week that they would be taking the NVQ on how to empty bins the right way. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: The best thing about it is the company who's telling them how to do it is the clowns who are trying to make better drivers out of us.

They are getting in touch with their Union to see if they can put a stop to it.

An NVQ on how to empty wheelie bins FFS. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:26 pm
Posts: 8529
There have already been protests at the imposition of the VRQ / NVQ; and L & R have agreed to keep the matter under review. At the last meeting my association queried the position on a regulatory basis as requested by Mr Caldicuti.

I have undertaken the suggested training.

I think it is common ground that the decision to impose the NVQ requirement has served to unite drivers, including PH drivers. I am now required by members to present a petition against the proposition. This is a petition against the principle and on the merits of the scheme as it unfolds.

I was originally required to petition on behalf of more experienced drivers; I was asked to circulate the document, drivers themselves deleted that portion of the preamble thereby including all drivers, however recent their experience. The petition is signed by the overwhelming majority of those I directly represent. There is no formal petition from PHV drivers; it will come as no surprise to observe that conversation with our colleagues in that trade also shows overwhelming support.

The “in principle” demand is simply dealt with; it is a request, after consultation, to change policy, so that existing licence holders do not have to obtain an NVQ. You will note that it is only those who are self employed who are unable to claim the expense, or loss of earning, involved in obtaining an NVQ. A dental receptionist taking the appropriate NVQ is given a loss of income payment.

At our meeting three months ago there was criticism because of the lack of training places. The office of “Metro” has a notice board on which there are now advertisements for 4 training courses. Two of these are from educational colleges, two are by private companies. The latter have, quite properly, as their primary need, and statutory object, to make a profit. One has debts registered. The funding for each trainee is £1750. Training groups seem to be of up to 12 people (a couple are often not funded as discussed at our last meeting) a revenue stream of, say, £17,500. Yet there is no recompense for drivers; although one training provider canvassing for students has informed members that if they were to take the training course in Preston that the training provider would share its revenue to the extent of £300.

Members report that funding is available for those who work with a radio circuit. Members working without a radio have been declined a training place, by one of the providers, at least.
Training varies; the NVQ for existing drivers can be undertaken without formal, significant, classroom study. There is competition for students; the boast is that e.g. one can undertake the NVQ with minimal classroom time, I was quoted 1 hour.

Edexcel, as the regulatory body, requires the VRQ knowledge as the requisite, underpinning, and theoretical basis of the NVQ. It envisages that the learning time to get to the VRQ level is 70 hours, in total. The requisite knowledge must be gained even without the VRQ.

Accreditation of Prior Learning or grandfathering of prior knowledge is permitted for both qualifications, but none is assumed and apart from the VRQ being specifically accepted there is no other accreditation method suggested, grandfathering in name only? This accreditation could reduce learning time, but it may well be easier if the material is taught, the paradox of the suggested and canvassed ‘minimal classroom’ approach.

The course material stipulated by Edexcel is provided by Transport Training Technologies, it is not, seemingly, given to members studying for the NVQ as existing drivers, unless they undertake the VRQ first. This material is made up of booklets published by Transport Training Technologies Ltd, and further course work material supplied to trainers. Edexcel stipulates training providers obtain this material, which constitutes the learning syllabus.

Although therefore students are attracted by the alleged promise of few classroom hours for the NVQ, they are disadvantaged by the lack of, formal, training materials at this level. The trainer’s boast of no time off the road reduces their teaching overheads with the disadvantage that students are left to assemble the required knowledge with insufficient material, yet are expected to acquire this, tested, knowledge.

Much of the required information is indeed already within the student’s existing knowledge as is implied in the rationale for the petition. This is organised for VRQ students in the fairly simple booklets, which should be available to all; the absence of these is a further cost saving for trainers.

One member was asked to meet an external verifier; not a problem he thought. Needless to say he will not repeat the process.

I now need to turn to the syllabus and detail of the problem:
I was surprised, when pointing out clear mistakes in the syllabus to be told that I need to know more than the teacher. Flattering to me maybe; but no help to others.

Course material shows that an addict or alcoholic is “disabled”, in fact SI 1455 of 1996 at paragraph 3 states that addiction arising from medical treatment, only, is an impairment.

The seat belt regulations fail to teach that a PHV or taxi with a separate passenger compartment exempts the driver from criminal liability arising from a failure of a child to wear a seat belt; SI 176 of 1993 at paragraph 9 (b). [Paragraph 9 (a), but not (b) was altered by the 2006 regulations.]

An answer to a Q & A (jargon for question and answer) demands that there are 4 compulsory anchorage points for an electric wheelchair. Not only is there no such requirement, there are no such anchorage points in the vehicles actually licensed. There is an aspiration for such facility; but it is not there to use. “The Book” says one should use any restraints actually available.

There is another Q & A, and discussion, dealing with the power of an authorised officer, who may be accompanied by police. The answer given by the training establishment alleges that an authorised officer of another authority has power to stop and examine a vehicle. An authorised officer can check licensing requirements; but he never has power to stop. Power to stop a vehicle is reserved, by S.163 of the RTA 1988 to police (and traffic officers – although VOSA is now in on the act as well). A licensing officer from another district has no powers; the 1976 Act at S.68 reads “Any authorised officer of the council in question”. For this reason SMBC authorises licensing officers in Liverpool and vice versa. Otherwise there is no power, if that is in doubt then I refer to paragraph 23 of the well known judgment in “Newcastle v Berwick” 2008 EWHC 2369, Admin. It is there not contested that officers outside the area have no power, it was agreed between the parties that PHV and taxi licensing is a local matter and that local requirements may vary. This is why the legislative scheme is that set out mainly in the Local Government Misc Provisions Act 1976. On checking I note that the 2006 RSA affects S.61 not S.68 of the 1976 Act.

Some officers nevertheless attempt to stop a vehicle. A lady friend with a PH licence in N Wales was once terrified by a chasing car; it turned out to be driven by a licensing officer.

Trevor Jones, who most members of this committee know points out that the suggestion that PH firms could store lost property, may pose a danger. It may be that (depending on each circumstance) such arrangements will fall foul of the “theft by finding” offence. This can be complicated but is a clear danger; and the procedure should not be recommended without warning of the potential problem

Unbelievably the course material states that a passenger failing to pay commits no offence, although this is repeated in the section dealing with London, it goes on (bizarrely) to advise a call to the police. We will be dealing with this topic later and I refer here only to R v Aziz, as that is a reported case on the point, it does not rely on a theoretical explanation of statute law. You will wish to know that a member has suffered an incident where a passenger has been convicted under the Fraud Act.

At the annual meeting in January it was stated that driver safety was a prime reason for this scheme. It is not safe to teach that drunks and addicts have a right to carriage; especially when so many licensed vehicles are saloon cars. Especially as they, in turn will get to think they need not pay.

The well being of drivers cannot be furthered by teaching that this is the only trade where dishonestly refusing payment is not criminalised. If the public thought that payment was legally voluntary then chaos will ensue. But this is what is being taught. In time this advice will become well known; think how many Saturday night thrill seekers will try it on. Do not rely on contract law. I have issued proceedings liberally; I promise others will not wish to do so. I have often stood behind someone in the court trying to issue a few actions, to be told the paperwork was wrong. Mine was identical but accepted because of its frequency. In any event it would firstly it would be necessary to persuade the miscreant to provide accurate details, identity, address and so on. Can you imagine the abuse?

What happens to the driver who refuses a wheelchair because he thinks he must have 4 anchorage points and where does that leave the disabled passenger?

I am staggered that it can be taught that there are powers to stop, examine and inquire which do not exist. Admittedly I support the view that regulatory powers are vastly excessive and unnecessarily numerous; but I have not before encountered the formal teaching of a power that is not there. To be fair to our licensing officers I must make it clear that when they do stop vehicles they do so when accompanying a police officer.

It is clear that these factually incorrect matters should be brought to the attention of past students, who now hold qualifications based on incorrect material.

It is correctly stated that students should keep up to date. There is no recommended method, no specific reference to organisations such as the PHA, Unison (which has sections for all parts of the trade), or any other association.

From the matters I have set out it may well follow that SMBC could incur liability in adopting or continuing a scheme of this nature.

The subject is not taught accurately and is tested wrongly, if for no other reason, the scheme must now by re-considered by councillors. It is surely not proper that SMBC requires incorrect information to be taught to its license holders.

There are also the differing approaches by trainers to the whole set up which must be considered. It would be preferable if any training was only available from established educational institutions.

I am therefore charged with the task of asking that this matter and these comments are laid before “L & R” forthwith. I would hope this can be done by the chairman? If not, I have to approach directly.

I have with me a folder with the various errors shown, and the source material I quote showing the correct position, if you wish to inspect it.

I have not included the theft by finding material.

The folder also contains a portion of a company search relating to Transport Training Technologies Ltd. It can be seen that Bryan Roland is a director, making it surprising, and disappointing, that these errors occur?

There is also a section dealing with Edexcel requirements, taken from its website; you will note the specific reference to the Transport Training Technology material.

_________________
Justice for the 96. It has only taken 27 years...........repeat the same lies for 27 years and the truth sounds strange to people!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:11 pm
Posts: 8119
Location: A Villa in Aston NO MORE!
gusmac wrote:
You don't walk into a restaurant and expect to have to show the chef how to cook FFS.

You do in Tootsville!!!

_________________
Kind regards,

Brummie Cabbie.

Type a message, post your news,
Disagree with other members' views;
But please, do have some decorum,
When debating on the TDO Forum.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:11 pm
Posts: 8119
Location: A Villa in Aston NO MORE!
MR T wrote:
Edexcel, as the regulatory body, ...........

The course material stipulated by Edexcel .........

Edexcel stipulates training providers obtain this material, which constitutes the learning syllabus.

There is also a section dealing with Edexcel requirements, ........

I did not know that Edexcel were the regulatory body for this course.

With their reported abysmal record on terrible life affecting mistakes in examinations for school children, it is NO WONDER that the NVQ course content is an ASS.

_________________
Kind regards,

Brummie Cabbie.

Type a message, post your news,
Disagree with other members' views;
But please, do have some decorum,
When debating on the TDO Forum.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:11 pm
Posts: 8119
Location: A Villa in Aston NO MORE!
toots wrote:
Yes I am an assessor.

Good for you!!

But that does not make the NVQ course content right.

As an assessor, you must be a close relative of Harry Enfield!

_________________
Kind regards,

Brummie Cabbie.

Type a message, post your news,
Disagree with other members' views;
But please, do have some decorum,
When debating on the TDO Forum.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 14152
Location: Wirral
Quote:
If these are quality courses and from good providers, why should the trade need to tell them anything? They are providing their service for a great deal of money. It's their job to get it right, not ours.
You don't walk into a restaurant and expect to have to show the chef how to cook FFS.


I'm not fan of fly by night training companies never have been and never will be and I don't consider them good providers. Established colleges with good reputations provide a better course. Edexcel is only one of the awarding bodies for this course. Another is Edi, which, is the preferred awarding body of the fly by night training company. Fly by night training companies are sucessful because drivers want the easy option and they provide it. It is because drivers can't take time from work or simply don't want to that the fly by night training company has come up trumps with their course cos they just give out work sheets that can be completed in your vehicle. If you spend minimal time with your training provider there is a good chance they aren't providing a good course.

From experience whenever I have undertaken a course of any description I have always opted for the established college method as opposed to the training company method. Whilst this has required more from me I felt if I was going to do something I'd rather do it properly, but, that's just me.

When I was required to undertake the Btec/VRQ I looked for a good provider. This ultimately meant I would have to give up some of my free time to attend a classroom based course and we all learnt something from everybody elses experiences and we had a laugh as well. Continuing with this provider I have watched as they have adjusted the content of the course provided. The tutor responsible for the delivery of this course has done extensive research to ensure the information is correct and is always updating things. Whilst this tutor has never been a taxi driver her educational background is excellent and although not particularly relevant her husband use to be a taxi driver.

The feedback from drivers regarding this course is good. The company that these drivers work for has now attached itself to a training company to provide the course because they are quicker. The company has opted for quantity rather than quality. As I see it the company has now devalued it's driver training, but, that is expected from a PH company cos all they care about is being able to have drivers paying the settle every week.

Drivers that have undertaken the course with the college and done the literacy and numeracy at level one have come back to do the level two.

As I have said before and will continue to say it is up to you to find a good provider, a provider that actually earns the money they will ultimately be paid and at the end of the day colleges like taxi drivers are in this business to make a profit and there is nothing wrong with that.

As you said I wouldn't like to go into a restaurant and have to tell the chef how to cook. With the same opinion I wouldn't like to get a taxi and have to tell them to get off their backside and open the boot so I can put things in it or how to raise a smile cos they aren't very customer focused :wink:

Quote:
The folder also contains a portion of a company search relating to Transport Training Technologies Ltd. It can be seen that Bryan Roland is a director, making it surprising, and disappointing, that these errors occur?


This is no surprise to me at all. Even people within the trade will seek to make money from it. I have also been told that he actually contributed to the content of the 3 books that go with the course, but, how true this is I don't know.

Quote:
You don't walk into a restaurant and expect to have to show the chef how to cook FFS.


Quote:
You do in Tootsville!!!


That's very presumptious of you, I can actually cook and quite well :shock:

Quote:
As an assessor, you must be a close relative of Harry Enfield!


:? :?

Quote:
But that does not make the NVQ course content right.


Which part of the NVQ course content do you not think is right :?

_________________
Note to self: Just because it pops into my head does NOT mean it should come out of my mouth!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:11 pm
Posts: 8119
Location: A Villa in Aston NO MORE!
Nigel wrote:
You've got to love this little gem, I was talking to a bin man last night and wait for it,

The Council are bringing in an NVQ on how to empty bins, when is this debacle going to stop?

An NVQ on how to empty wheelie bins FFS. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Let's ALL see what other jobs or trades we could perhaps invent an NVQ course for??

Road sweeping perhaps??

How about gutter sweeping?

It's different from road sweeping you know!!

Gutter sweeping is a lower level of sweeping than road sweeping, (because of the camber of the road).

Then there is an even higher form of sweeping, i.e. pavement sweeping!!

That's three new courses that Edexcel can devise.

Then we could have an NVQ in toilet cleaning.

This of course would be at total of six new courses for Edexcel to create and would be right up their street.

The six NVQ toilet cleaning courses would be;
1. Men’s public toilets
2. Ladies public toilets
3. Men’s private toilets
4. Ladies private toilets
5. Men’s executive toilets
6. Ladies executive toilets

That’s nine new NVQ courses.

Then we could have two new NVQ in grass mowing, one when the grass is wet & one when it is dry. There are different techniques when mowing dry or wet grass you see. And those great big sit-on mowing machines can be very dangerous if the operative does not have an NVQ.

But then I personally would prefer a grass mowing operative to have no NVQ, but with common sense, rather than a dummy with an NVQ.

That’s eleven new NVQ’s that Edexcel can start preparing the course work for!!

Any other suggestions for new NVQ courses?

_________________
Kind regards,

Brummie Cabbie.

Type a message, post your news,
Disagree with other members' views;
But please, do have some decorum,
When debating on the TDO Forum.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 14152
Location: Wirral
Quote:
Road sweeping perhaps??


Too late there is already one in place :shock:

_________________
Note to self: Just because it pops into my head does NOT mean it should come out of my mouth!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:11 pm
Posts: 8119
Location: A Villa in Aston NO MORE!
toots wrote:
You don't walk into a restaurant and expect to have to show the chef how to cook FFS.


Quote:
You do in Tootsville!!!


Quote:
That's very presumptious of you, I can actually cook and quite well :shock:

The point was not about your cooking!!

The point was about a restaurant in Tootsville!!

Unless, that is, you actually are the chef in a restaurant in Tootsville, which I would not know.

PS. Tootsville = Your town or city (as per your TDO profile)

_________________
Kind regards,

Brummie Cabbie.

Type a message, post your news,
Disagree with other members' views;
But please, do have some decorum,
When debating on the TDO Forum.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Cerberus and 760 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group