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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:41 pm 
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Alex wrote:
A police spokeswoman said: "We have a responsibility to the public and other road users to educate the operators of limousines about the legality and serious safety issues surrounding the running of these vehicles.


I think certain elements of the limo trade have indeed tried to educate all limo operators, in all aspects of the law but it is also evident to most of us on TDO that there are certain elements of the limo trade who prefer to run around unlicensed or try and circumvent the law by inventive but illegal methods such as bogus contracts. The contracts in question are no longer applicable but there is of course the Wedding contract scam which many will no doubt still try and operate. As for the minibus conversion exercise I don't think we will have that long to wait before that particular method of hire is tested in the courts.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:55 pm 
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skippy41 wrote:
We have 2 limos in the Borders, and they are both plated PH.
JD you posed the question what if they cannot obtain a licence, If they where to go PH I was under the impression that councils could not refuse to licence them as long as they meet all the licencing requirements is this true??????


A council doesn't have to license any vehicle as private hire but if it doesn't then the person seeking the license has a statutory right of appeal as you well know. Therefore any vehicle that doesn't conform with the criteria set out by the council will fail.

Many councils have no problem licensing limos providing they pass the necessary tests but there are some councils who place what some might see as restrictive conditions on these types of vehicles which cannot be met. Obviously the appeal process then kicks in but it is not a foregone conclusion that a magistrate will turn over the council decision.

I know of one such case where a limo appeal was successful based on the left hand drive condition but I understand there may have been more. There are many councils who don't apply the left hand drive rule and if that be the case then there is no reason why normal taxi/private hire vehicles shouldn't be licensed with left hand drive.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:06 pm 
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I think that the majority of councils, stipulate that the engine must be a minimum 1400cc, have 4 doors and a boot for luggage, and limos fall into that category even though they are longer.
I wonder if any limo owner has ever applied for a hack licence especially in area's where WAV's are not as yet manditory would be a bit tight on the rank though :shock:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:13 pm 
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skippy41 wrote:
I think that the majority of councils, stipulate that the engine must be a minimum 1400cc, have 4 doors and a boot for luggage, and limos fall into that category even though they are longer.
I wonder if any limo owner has ever applied for a hack licence especially in area's where WAV's are not as yet manditory would be a bit tight on the rank though :shock:


lol I think you are right about rank space being at a premium but I doubt limo operators would chance putting their expensive vehicles at the mercy of the drunks and mindless layabouts that sometimes frequent taxis.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:28 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
Alex wrote:
One vehicle, a £130k Stretch Hummer was seized as a result of a number of offences dealt with by both the police and VOSA.

If that isn't evidence of complete and utter stupidity then you have to wonder what could be.

Paying £130,000 and still getting it wrong. ](*,)


Have any of the limo websites commented on this sting considering the number of vehicles that were stopped and found to be in breach of the law?

Would you care to guess at why the hummer was impounded.

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JD

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:12 pm 
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JD wrote:
Would you care to guess at why the hummer was impounded.

If memory serves me right it was too heavy. :shock:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:14 pm 
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JD wrote:
Have any of the limo websites commented on this sting considering the number of vehicles that were stopped and found to be in breach of the law?

I think at the time of this sting there were several similar ones all around the country.

From what I can gather from the Limo sites the good guys don't have a problem with reasonable checks, and the bad guys do. :?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:26 pm 
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I am suprised at the claim that there were tacho problems because at the date of this operation Limos did not require tachos at all. They were introduced this year.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:35 pm 
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JD wrote:
grandad wrote:
JD wrote:
I'm wondering what happened to this so called water tight limo contract everyone raves about? Why didn't it work?

I'm getting conflicting messages that suggest the company first tried to say it was operating under a 7 day contract exemption and then changed its mind and said it was operating under a PSV license. Obviously it wasn't operating under any license but having tried both sets of rules and found them wanting I'm wondering where unlicensed limos go from here?

Regards

JD


As with any operating system you do actually have to operate the system correctly. If the company were claiming to operate under the 7 day contract exemption then they would have to produce the contract. If they were operating under VOSA again they would have to produce the documentation. Obviously they couldn't produce any documentation so therfore they were banged to rights and serves them right. I run my limousines under private hire, I would be stupid to think that I don't have to keep the necesary paperwork available for inspection.
When I was a member of the then NLA now the NLcA the advice was that if your LA would license then that is what you should do. The other options were advised only where the LA wouldn't license. This company claim to be members of the NLcA so I would be interested in their(the NLcA) view of this operator.


Thank you for that input Grandad but when I spoke to the Sussex police today to find out the circumstances of how these prosecutions came about they seemed to be under the impression that there are more unlicensed limos running around than those that are licensed?

TDO is the first to get that press release because we wanted the facts and not because we have anything against limos but because we prefer to get at the truth of the matter.

My question in the previous post was, "where do unlicensed limos go from here" because it appears to both me and the police that there might still be a great many limos out there who are either not prepared to get licensed or are incapable of obtaining a license?

Do you have an opinion on the number of limos that might fit into the permanent unlicensed category?

Regards

JD


Undoubtedly there are many limousines that are not yet licensed along with many more chauffeured cars. and my opinion of them all is probably similar to your own and that is get licensed or get out but I would like to see councils work with the limo operators to get them licensed. I have heard some councils have sent out over 100 letters to limousine and chauffeur company's over the past few months and only a hand full have replied. That just shows that some people can't be helped and they deserve all they get. I have no sympathy with them, after all I have paid out to get mine licensed so they should too. I do, however have sympathy with the operators that have done all they can to get licensed and run legal but have come up against council brick walls.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:36 pm 
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skippy41 wrote:
I think that the majority of councils, stipulate that the engine must be a minimum 1400cc, have 4 doors and a boot for luggage, and limos fall into that category even though they are longer.
I wonder if any limo owner has ever applied for a hack licence especially in area's where WAV's are not as yet manditory would be a bit tight on the rank though :shock:


I think it is Kettering that actualy license stretched limos as Hackney carriages. A very stange place. :?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:41 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
JD wrote:
Would you care to guess at why the hummer was impounded.

If memory serves me right it was too heavy. :shock:


The answers in the question the driver stank :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:02 am 
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Alex wrote:
Press release sent to TDO from Sussex Police

Issue Date: 1/2/2008

No: 22867

Title: LIMOUSINE COMPANY CONVICTED


A limousine company has been convicted at Brighton Magistrates Court today, Friday 1st February, on eight counts connected to operating unlicensed vehicles and drivers.

Travelmasters Limited failed two test purchases carried out by council officers and also failed an on-the-spot check in December 2006 carried out as part of Operation Fantasia, a multi-agency operation involving Brighton & Hove's Roads Policing Unit, VOSA (Vehicle and Operator Services Agency), Brighton and Hove Council Taxi Licensing Unit and officers from the Sussex Police Special Constabulary stopping limousines to ensure vehicles were correctly licensed and roadworthy and drivers held relevant licences in the interest of public safety.

On 9th December 2006, the team stopped twenty one limousines, with nine being given prohibitions for numerous offences including being overweight, carrying invalid operator licences and driving licences, inaccurate tachographs, carrying excessive passengers and having faulty tyres, brakes and lights.

Some were given immediate prohibitions, others with direction notices, and three were seized immediately. A number of endorsable and non endorsable tickets were also issued for a wide range of offences. One vehicle, a £130k Stretch Hummer was seized as a result of a number of offences dealt with by both the police and VOSA.

A police spokeswoman said: "We have a responsibility to the public and other road users to educate the operators of limousines about the legality and serious safety issues surrounding the running of these vehicles. Everyone who visits Brighton & Hove should be able to have a safe and enjoyable evening and we would urge anyone booking a limousine for that extra special event to check the credentials of the company they are booking with and ensure that they comply with all regulations."

More than 6,000 limousines are currently in the UK, the overwhelming majority of which are imported from the USA.

As the use of limousines in the UK rises, particularly in cities like Brighton, Sussex Police are keen to ensure that the companies that operate these vehicles comply with safety and legal requirements at all times and will carry out more checks in the future.

Details of sentencing are awaited.


I have just read this again and realise that it was an opeeration that was carried out in 2006. I thought it was something new.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:45 am 
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grandad wrote:
I have just read this again and realise that it was an opeeration that was carried out in 2006. I thought it was something new.


How much more recent can you get than a few days ago? From my understanding there were several hearings prior to the eventual guilty plea.

Apart from the failed attempt by VOSA to secure a conviction of a limo operating under PSV legislation a few years ago, this was the very first prosecution of its kind in respect of this type of vehicle to come before the courts under the 1976 act. I suggest the reason for any delay might have been at the request of the court in order to clarify the charges and expand on the legal definitions in the various hire or reward acts.

Regards

JD

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:35 pm 
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I was refering to the actual offenses being over a year ago.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:05 pm 
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grandad wrote:
I have just read this again and realise that it was an opeeration that was carried out in 2006. I thought it was something new.

I think the press release from the police was held back until the limo firm got to court. But that check was only 1 of 8 offences they were charged with.

I believe the two test purchases were separate to the limo check, but the firm that ended up with the £130,000 hummer going nowhere wasn't the firm recently convicted. :wink:

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