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 Post subject: (Mis)Representation?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:30 pm 
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(Mis)Representation? (15/11/2005)

While it’s quite usual for local associations to be deemed to represent ‘the trade’, this is a rather superficial view of things, and the reality is significantly more complex.

At Taxi Driver Online we recently received an email from a licensing councillor who said that, since the local ‘hackney association’ was supportive of his council’s approach, then he doubted our claim that those behind TDO were working taxi and PH drivers.

Leaving aside the fact that the views of those behind TDO might well differ from a local hackney association, and that the councillor implied that we were lying without a scintilla of evidence (an accusation that remains unsubstantiated despite us drawing the council’s attention to the issue), his point is perhaps symptomatic of the rather superficial view of the trade held by many, and the matter of representation is merely one facet of this problem.

One major issue is that formal representation in the trade tends to be fairly limited numerically – while in some areas a fair proportion of drivers belong to some kind of representative group, in others such organisations represent only a small proportion of the local trade, whereas in a few there is barely any formal representation at all.

Then there’s the question of who exactly these groups represent. There is certainly a tendency for local associations to represent vehicle owners and operators rather than the trade as a whole, and indeed drivers who do not own a vehicle may be ineligible to joins such organisations at all, or at best their interests play second fiddle to owners and office proprietors.

While at the local level there are a myriad of different scenarios, at the national level there’s certainly no doubt that the representative organisations tend towards the interests of the owners. Of course, the cornerstone of the National Taxi Association’s policies is the restriction of taxi numbers, with the effect that taxi drivers are forced to either buy a plate for a significant sum or drive a car belonging to someone else. If there are plateless drivers in the NTA then their interests are certainly not being represented unless, of course, they are hoodwinked into thinking that they get more work by having vehicle numbers restricted, whereas of course any extra income goes straight back out again to pay inflated rentals to taxi owners.

The T&G (and to a lesser extent the GMB) takes a similar stance, and when the union makes any public utterance about the rights of drivers what they often mean is taxi owners, with drivers just there to pay the inflated rentals which prop up plate premiums. For example, despite opposing increased taxi vehicle numbers in Manchester, last year the GMB’s representative there complained about a ‘shortage’ of drivers. Therefore more taxis on the road would be wholly acceptable if it meant incumbent owners’ vehicles on the road more of the time, irrespective of the fact that this would result in less income for drivers.

As for the other prominent national group - the National Private Hire Association - it seems to want to represent everyone, including anyone from the taxi side of the trade willing to pay the subscription. So, for example, while many PH drivers would like the opportunity to run their own taxi in restricted areas, the NPHA’s publication often flies the flag for restricted numbers, presumably to please the taxi and private hire interests that support the policy, while locally the body occasionally represents the taxi and private hire interests that don’t support the policy(!)

Thus to characterise ‘the trade’ as being of one voice is to misrepresent it, and just because a local or national association or trades union adopts a particular stance, that doesn’t mean that all those in the trade agree – going back to the point made at the outset, anyone in the local trade who doesn’t support the stance of the hackney association and the council are unlikely to join the association in the first place, thus to that extent the association’s position is unrepresentative.

Indeed, in normal industrial relations terms, it could well be said that trade organisations tend to represent the employers rather than the workers (which is rather ironic in the case of the T&G and GMB), and the workers tend not to be represented at all. Of course, this simplifies a complex scenario of numerous competing interests, but the only sizeable trade organisation in the UK that could truly be said to represent those at the coal face is the LTDA in London – the T&G and GMB are less National Union of Mineworkers than National Coal Board!

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 Post subject: Re: (Mis)Representation?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:17 pm 
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TDO wrote:
(Mis)Representation? (15/11/2005)

While its quite usual for local associations to be deemed to represent ‘the trade’, this is a rather superficial view of things, and the reality is significantly more complex.

At Taxi Driver Online we recently received an email from a licensing councillor who said that, since the local ‘hackney association’ was supportive of his councils approach, then he doubted our claim that those behind TDO were working taxi and PH drivers.


It would seem Oldham councillors have had a rethink on policy, so perhaps not all councillors in Oldham agree with the fellow who wrote to TDO.

Your article brought to my attention the increasing prominence of the GMBU. I think they must have inherited many ex TGWU supporters? Could this be the case?

If it is the case, is there a possibility this union could eventually be hijacked by the vested interests? If that happens are we likely to see a mass exit by those who have an alternate view?

I am a little sceptical about the GMBU because they did very little that was visible in opposing the charge for rank marshals in Manchester.

Just my thought for the day?


Regards

JD


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 Post subject: Re: (Mis)Representation?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:39 am 
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JD wrote:
I am a little sceptical about the GMBU because they did very little that was visible in opposing the charge for rank marshals in Manchester.

That's because the taxi unions (outside of London) are concerned with one thing, and only one thing, and that's the retention of taxi quotas.

Everything else goes out of the window, and councils are finally working out that they can shaft the trade left, right and center, but as long as they don't change their policy on quotas, then the local trade will just bend over and take it.

All that for a few quid a week. :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: (Mis)Representation?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:07 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
JD wrote:
I am a little sceptical about the GMBU because they did very little that was visible in opposing the charge for rank marshals in Manchester.

That's because the taxi unions (outside of London) are concerned with one thing, and only one thing, and that's the retention of taxi quotas.

Everything else goes out of the window, and councils are finally working out that they can shaft the trade left, right and center, but as long as they don't change their policy on quotas, then the local trade will just bend over and take it.

All that for a few quid a week. :lol: :lol:



Sad to say the least but that's what happens when you are employed by the local benevolent dictatorship.

What a pathetic bunch of arse kissers, take control of their own trade, what a joke, makes you want to puke.

What's even sadder is they just can't see it, subservient to the last every one of them.







:-|

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 Post subject: Re: (Mis)Representation?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:01 pm 
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Quote:
That's because the taxi unions (outside of London) are concerned with one thing, and only one thing, and that's the retention of taxi quotas.

Everything else goes out of the window, and councils are finally working out that they can shaft the trade left, right and center, but as long as they don't change their policy on quotas, then the local trade will just bend over and take it.

All that for a few quid a week. :lol: :lol:

In liverpool there not content with retention of taxi quotas . The T&G the fleet owners and the licensing officer, have formed a deadly alliance . They pretend they represent the trade , no one believes that, only the thick councillors . The fare hike on 21 11 05 . Proves this although Liverpool has some of the worst areas of poverty in the UK . Liverpool has fares far hire than the surounding LAs . That situation is about to get even worse .The trades not getting shafted here , the public and the drivers are (drivers you would think ,would be considered part of the trade, not in Liverpool ) . streetcar


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 Post subject: Re: (Mis)Representation?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:37 pm 
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streetcar wrote:
Quote:
That's because the taxi unions (outside of London) are concerned with one thing, and only one thing, and that's the retention of taxi quotas.

Everything else goes out of the window, and councils are finally working out that they can shaft the trade left, right and center, but as long as they don't change their policy on quotas, then the local trade will just bend over and take it.

All that for a few quid a week. :lol: :lol:

In liverpool there not content with retention of taxi quotas . The T&G the fleet owners and the licensing officer, have formed a deadly alliance . They pretend they represent the trade , no one believes that, only the thick councillors . The fare hike on 21 11 05 . Proves this although Liverpool has some of the worst areas of poverty in the UK . Liverpool has fares far hire than the surounding LAs . That situation is about to get even worse .The trades not getting shafted here , the public and the drivers are (drivers you would think ,would be considered part of the trade, not in Liverpool ) . streetcar



It's the same every where you go with taxi quotas, every one selling each other out like rats climbing over rats, while pretending not to be a rat. It's funny I quite like rats as long as they are not pretending not to be one for my benefit:lol:

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 Post subject: (Mis)representation?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:35 pm 
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Am I being to simplistic?

Surely, in a free market supply and demand meet somewhere in the middle.

If there are sufficient freely available HC plates to meet public demand then few private hire plates are required. If, on the other hand, HC plates are restricted, private hire fleets mushroom to meet the unmet demand.
Either way, the total number of licensed vehicles, both HC and PH, will be set by the law of supply and demand.

This principle appears to well illustrated in many local authority areas in the south. Or am I missing something?


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 Post subject: Re: (Mis)representation?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:17 am 
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cabbyman wrote:
Am I being to simplistic?

Surely, in a free market supply and demand meet somewhere in the middle.

If there are sufficient freely available HC plates to meet public demand then few private hire plates are required. If, on the other hand, HC plates are restricted, private hire fleets mushroom to meet the unmet demand.
Either way, the total number of licensed vehicles, both HC and PH, will be set by the law of supply and demand.

This principle appears to well illustrated in many local authority areas in the south. Or am I missing something?



Makes perfect sense to me :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: (Mis)representation?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:07 pm 
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cabbyman wrote:
If there are sufficient freely available HC plates to meet public demand then few private hire plates are required. If, on the other hand, HC plates are restricted, private hire fleets mushroom to meet the unmet demand.
Either way, the total number of licensed vehicles, both HC and PH, will be set by the law of supply and demand.



As regards your first point - not necessarily, because if it's difficult to run a HC anyway then there will still be plenty of PH, as London demonstrates. And as a south coaster you may be well aware of the DDA implications by virtue of SCATA and Mr Friswell, which would encourage PH irrespective of any restriction of HC plates.

I agree with your second point.

As regards your third point, if HC are restricted in number then self-evidently the numbers won't be set by the law of supply and demand, thus I disagree when you claim this will work 'either way'.

But anyway, does this mean you favour numerical controls or not?

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 Post subject: (Mis)Representation?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:11 pm 
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DDA, SCATA & Mt Friswell are unknown to me. Would somebody explain, please?

On the third point, the total number of vehicles in the HC/PH market will be self-adjusting according to the laws of supply & demand. Only the ratio between the two disciplines will vary according to locally imposed conditions and anomalies. In our local area, Boroughs that have a restriction on HC plates have a vast number of PH vehicles. Conversely, Boroughs that freely issue HC plates have very few PH plates taken up. Maybe my use of the term 'either way' was misplaced.

As for my preference, I work in a deregulated borough, albeit, as part of a large HC co-operative with lots of telephone work. Consequently, I'm probably prefer knowing from the rank numbers the market conditions ruling at any particular time than wondering whether a PH company are running circles around everyone else. I have no experience of work in a regulated area. However, I'm happy with my lot (so my wife tells me!).


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 Post subject: Re: (Mis)Representation?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:51 pm 
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cabbyman wrote:
DDA, SCATA & Mt Friswell are unknown to me. Would somebody explain, please?

The DDA is the Disability Discrimination Act, SCATA is an association of driver's groups, mainly from the South East, and Mr Friswell is their spokesperson.

The point being made is that if the DDA leads to all taxis becoming wheel-chair accessible (WAV), then some saloon taxis would change to PH rather than going WAV.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:21 am 
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Yes, the SC in SCATA stands for Southern Counties, and when Mr Cabbyman mentioned what was happening in the south, I assumed he would have heard of SCATA and Doug Friswell.

Perhaps old Frizzy isn't as well known as we thought :D

http://www.scata.co.uk/

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 Post subject: Re: (Mis)Representation?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:24 am 
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cabbyman wrote:
On the third point, the total number of vehicles in the HC/PH market will be self-adjusting according to the laws of supply & demand. Only the ratio between the two disciplines will vary according to locally imposed conditions and anomalies. In our local area, Boroughs that have a restriction on HC plates have a vast number of PH vehicles. Conversely, Boroughs that freely issue HC plates have very few PH plates taken up. Maybe my use of the term 'either way' was misplaced.



Some of our ex-members didn't come up with anything as insightful as that in thousands of posts :lol:

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