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 Post subject: Re: Uber Sheffield ban
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:18 pm 
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And you can’t transfer an operator licence.


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 Post subject: Re: Uber Sheffield ban
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:07 pm 
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mancityfan wrote:
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It actually happened here and the Council allowed the firm to continue working and allowed them to change the persons name after doing the checks. There was no live person on the license for about 2 months.


You can’t have an operators licence in a dead persons name.

You can here, apparently.

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 Post subject: Re: Uber Sheffield ban
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:18 pm 
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grandad wrote:
It actually happened here and the Council allowed the firm to continue working and allowed them to change the persons name after doing the checks. There was no live person on the license for about 2 months.


Yes, any business interests and related licences will become the responsibility of the deceased's executor following a death.

Looking around the internet the rule seems to be that the licence will continue for a specified period, giving the executor time to sort the deceased's business affairs out.

So if an operator's license is held by a sole trader then the business could be sold and a new licence granted to the purchaser, presumably.

If the operator's licence is held by a partnership or company then the licence will continue, presumably, and would simply require the local authority to be informed of the changes in ownership and/or directors and partners.

If it's a HC plate that's worth something then the executor will probably arrange the sale of that, and the licence would be transferred.

But whatever the precise details, I can't really see how the licensing laws would leave an ongoing business unlicensed in the event of a death - transitional arrangements will enable the business to continue as a going concern, and the licences dealt with accordingly.

In Scotland licences can't be transferred, so if it's worth anything then on death that value could disappear, although I think some councils will issue a new licence in place of the old one.

But that's why many HC license holders in Scotland set up companies as the licence holder. If they die then the licence doesn't need to be handed back because the company remains in existence. Of course, the council will have to be informed of any new owner or change of directors etc.

But that's what I can't understand about Uber in Sheffield - if the operator's licence is held by a company then Jo Betram's departure shouldn't be an issue as long as the correct procedures were adhered to.

So it could just be an administrative cock up, or the council is just playing silly beggars.


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 Post subject: Re: Uber Sheffield ban
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:48 pm 
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Sheffield Uber suspension lifted by city council

The suspension of Uber's licence in Sheffield has been lifted by the city council. It took the action last month after the company failed to respond to its requests. Uber said the correspondence had been sent to the wrong address.

The council has lifted the suspension following "productive discussions" and "satisfactory replies". The taxi-hailing firm had had until 18 December to respond or face being unable to operate in the city. Uber said: "We look forward to continuing to serve tens of thousands of riders and drivers in Sheffield."

The controversial loss-making tech giant had applied to change the name on its Sheffield licence on 5 October, and the next month the council licensing team sent a letter asking about its management practices. Uber said it never received the correspondence.

In a statement, the council said Uber had since replied to the questions it had been asked. A decision on the amended licence application will be made in early 2018.

In September, Transport for London decided it would not renew Uber's licence because of the firm's record over reporting criminal offences and carrying out driver background checks. The company also had its licence suspended in York after taxi drivers complained the city had become "overwhelmed" with Uber drivers.

City of York Council also said its concerns about a huge data breach - which Uber concealed from customers - had been a factor in the decision. No ban on Uber has ever come into force in the UK.

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 Post subject: Re: Uber Sheffield ban
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:48 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
No ban on Uber has ever come into force in the UK.

Reading?

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 Post subject: Re: Uber Sheffield ban
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:19 pm 
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Quote:
Uber said the correspondence had been sent to the wrong address.


aint it usually the responsibility of the licensee to inform of a change of address?

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 Post subject: Re: Uber Sheffield ban
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:51 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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Uber said the correspondence had been sent to the wrong address.


aint it usually the responsibility of the licensee to inform of a change of address?

Usually a condition of license, but hey it's Uber, do they worry about such things as licensing condition? [-(

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 Post subject: Re: Uber Sheffield ban
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:21 am 
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captain cab wrote:
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Uber said the correspondence had been sent to the wrong address.


aint it usually the responsibility of the licensee to inform of a change of address?


Maybe they did, but it ended up in the council's spam folder :D


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 Post subject: Re: Uber Sheffield ban
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:33 pm 
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StuartW wrote:
heathcote wrote:

1976 Act states that the Council can only grant an operators license to a PERSON.


Where does it say that?

If the Act refers to a 'person' applying it probably doesn't just mean an individual like you or me, but also companies and partnerships.

Therefore what is in law called a 'legal person':

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_person

If you look at any application form for an operator's licence (there are plenty available online) then it will probably have a section asking for the names of the partners if it's a partnership, or the directors and company secretary if it's a limited company.

By the same token, if you look at a council's licensing register for private hire operators (also some available online) then it'll very probably contain the names of companies and partnerships as the licensees as well as individuals.

As far as Sheffield is concerned I suspect all this stuff about only a named individual being allowed to apply for an operator's licence is wrong and a red herring as far as the dispute with Uber is concerned.

Of course, there will be named individuals involved in the application who will be responsible for the conduct of the operator, but legally the operator will be the company Uber Britannia Limited, not any particular individual.


Note that the letter from Transport for London to Uber said:

Quote:
Transport for London is not satisfied that Uber London Limited is a fit and proper person to hold a licence.


[-(

https://www.ltda.co.uk/assets/files/dow ... letter.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Uber Sheffield ban
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:21 am 
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Some stuff I noticed in Schedule 1 of the Scottish Act earlier, which is relevant to some of the discussion on this thread, and which I think confirms what I was saying back then [-(

Of course, this doesn't apply in England, but I suspect the general principles are broadly similar, whether it's in the legislation, or local licensing rules:

Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982, Schedule 1, para 8 wrote:
(3) In the event of the death of a holder of a licence (except in the case of a licence referred to in section 13 of this Act) that licence shall be deemed to have been granted to his executor and shall, unless previously revoked, suspended or surrendered, remain in force until the end of the period of 3 months beginning with the death and shall then expire; but the licensing authority may from time to time, on the application of the executor, extend or further extend that period if they are satisfied that the extension is necessary for the purpose of winding up the deceased’s estate and that no other circumstances make it undesirable.

(4) Where one of the joint holders of a licence ceases to be such, the licence shall continue in force as if held by its remaining holder for a period of six weeks from the date of such cessation but, where the remaining holder has made an application under paragraph 1 above for a licence in respect of the same activity within that period of six weeks, that period shall be extended until the time specified in sub-paragraph (6) below.

(5) If an application for the renewal of a licence is made before its expiry, the existing licence shall continue to have effect until the time specified in sub-paragraph (6) below.


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1982/45/schedule/1

(5) is maybe of most general interest, because it means you can apply for renewals on the last day of the month, and the licence remains in force until the council has either renewed it or otherwise formally dealt with it.

But that's why it's common here for drivers to have out of date badges and plates, because they can apply at the last minute, and it takes the council several weeks to process it.

In fact if you apply for annual plates and badges then I suspect you could easily have them showing an expired date 10-20% of the time :shock:

(Our plates show the licence expiry date rather than the vehicle test date.)


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 Post subject: Re: Uber Sheffield ban
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:55 pm 
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But surely applying for a vehicle license renewal is something that should be done on the day. Therefore having an old plate still shouldn't happen. Unless the plate making machine isn't working.

Or do some in Scotland apply before having their vehicle checked, and if so why do council license them?

I get the extension for drivers if something comes up on a medical which needs a more professional viewpoint, and if the DBS (or whatever they call it in Scotland) is slow to come back. But other than that I'm struggling to see why a license should be showing out of date.

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 Post subject: Re: Uber Sheffield ban
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:35 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
But surely applying for a vehicle license renewal is something that should be done on the day. Therefore having an old plate still shouldn't happen. Unless the plate making machine isn't working.

Or do some in Scotland apply before having their vehicle checked, and if so why do council license them?

I get the extension for drivers if something comes up on a medical which needs a more professional viewpoint, and if the DBS (or whatever they call it in Scotland) is slow to come back. But other than that I'm struggling to see why a license should be showing out of date.


When the Berwick situation was at its height there was vehicles running around the country with plates 6+months out of date and when Northumberland took control of licensing it did not improve the situation as plates were posted to proprietors.


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 Post subject: Re: Uber Sheffield ban
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:58 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
But surely applying for a vehicle license renewal is something that should be done on the day. Therefore having an old plate still shouldn't happen.

So if the application is lodged Friday 4pm on the 31st of the month, how can all the checks and processes be completed? We can lodge it in the Cupar admin office (which doesn't actually directly administer licensing stuff these days) so it'll be a few days into the month before the licensing department in Glenrothes has even received the application, and it's only then they can set the Disclosure Scotland (our DBS) stuff etc in motion, and I'm not sure how long that takes.

Quote:
Unless the plate making machine isn't working.

There are certainly logistical issues which don't help. In the early days when we got the new Mogo plates, as I recall it they would make the transfer sheets up in head office, and then send them by internal mail to the testing depots. I also recall at one time you had to go to an admin office to collect the transfer, then take it up to the depot, who would then apply the transfer to the plastic plate. I think they've streamlined it slightly now, but to be honest I've kind of given up thinking about it now. In the early days I generally had the one-year licenses, so it always seemed a big hassle, but now I get the three-year ones, so it's just something I tend to forget about, since you only need a new plate every three years, and I tend to keep my cars longer than the average :shock:

Quote:
Or do some in Scotland apply before having their vehicle checked, and if so why do council license them?

Unless it's a new licence grant or vehicle substitution, our vehicle tests are all conducted at the same time (March/April) but the plate is dated in accordance with the licence expiry, which is independent of the inspection process.

So it's a bit like needing valid insurance and MoT to get a car taxed for a year - the insurance or MoT might have almost a year to run, or could be about to expire, but if it's valid at the time then they'll issue the car tax for a year.

Quote:
I get the extension for drivers if something comes up on a medical which needs a more professional viewpoint, and if the DBS (or whatever they call it in Scotland) is slow to come back. But other than that I'm struggling to see why a license should be showing out of date.


Simply because it's administratively/logistically impossible to issue a new badge or plate on time unless the renewal is lodged a few weeks before expiry. I suppose they could issue a new badge or plate when the renewal application is submitted, but don't think that would actually accord with the law - the existing licence continues in effect until the new one is granted - so the existing plate continues in effect even though the expiry date has passed.

Not sure at all how long the Disclosure Scotland stuff takes - it all goes on 'behind the scenes', and isn't even mentioned as part of the application process, but must take a minimum of a week or two at least.

So you lodge the application at the last minute, it takes a day or two to even reach head office, they then set the Disclosure Scotland stuff in motion, then it comes back, they then send a letter out with paper licences and new badge, or send the plate stuff up to the depot - could easily take several weeks after expiry for all that to happen.

A few years ago the council started sending reminder letters stating that renewal applications had to be submitted a month before expiry, presumably to give them enough time to issue the new badges and plates before the expiry date.

But they stopped doing that - not sure why, but suspect someone pointed out that legally an application for renewal could be lodged right up to the expiry date.

I also suspect that another factor is that because the council knows that the badges and plates are inevitably going to show the wrong date for a spell then they're in no particular hurry to get them out.


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 Post subject: Re: Uber Sheffield ban
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:31 pm 
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Quote:
So if the application is lodged Friday 4pm on the 31st of the month, how can all the checks and processes be completed?

For a vehicle license what are these checks and processes? Or do you in Scotland apply for renewal before you do the vehicle check?

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 Post subject: Re: Uber Sheffield ban
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:33 pm 
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Quote:
Unless it's a new licence grant or vehicle substitution, our vehicle tests are all conducted at the same time (March/April) but the plate is dated in accordance with the licence expiry, which is independent of the inspection process.

Well that makes no sense whatsoever. ](*,)

So you can have a license date on the plate when the vehicle is unchecked whilst still showing it to be licensed.

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