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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:29 pm 
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sounds like they are struggling to find enough to make it stick but here's hoping they do this is one very dangerous individual

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:51 pm 
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edders23 wrote:
sounds like they are struggling to find enough to make it stick but here's hoping they do this is one very dangerous individual

No.

The CPS don't work like that. If they don't have enough evidence to charge, or a realistic chance of a conviction, then it wont make court.

Doesn't mean the fella charged is already guilty, far from it, but a case to answer is going to be brought before the courts.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:36 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
edders23 wrote:
sounds like they are struggling to find enough to make it stick but here's hoping they do this is one very dangerous individual

No.

The CPS don't work like that. If they don't have enough evidence to charge, or a realistic chance of a conviction, then it wont make court.

Doesn't mean the fella charged is already guilty, far from it, but a case to answer is going to be brought before the courts.


Maybe *something* in what Edders says, though?

I mean, if it was an open and shut case then would it have taken ten months to bring charges? And would police still be appealing for evidence/witnesses?

As the Dundee case maybe demonstrated, there's often a lot of positioning and politics involved in this kind of thing - with a double fatality there will be pressure to bring charges of some sort, even when the evidence is flimsy, and which they wouldn't bother with in relation to a minor shunt, even if the standard of driving was identical.

Good case in point, perhaps - former DPP Alison Saunders has been awarded a damehood, and she was under fire for bringing unsustainable rape prosecutions. As I recall it, this was essentially all about political pressure to do something, even if by normal standards the chances of conviction were slim:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rdeal.html

Of course, the Merseyside crash case is different, and I don't necessarily mean 'politics' in the sense of political parties, but I think the wider context needs to be considered in cases like this [-(


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:44 pm 
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I mean, if it was an open and shut case then would it have taken ten months to bring charges? And would police still be appealing for evidence/witnesses?

Who knows?

Maybe they have had someone come forward later in the day with new evidence, maybe this case needed more time for the CPS to meet its evidential requirements.

I doubt the political pressure issue in this case, and IMO the longer the time from incident to charge, the less pressure there is.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:18 am 
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Sussex wrote:
Maybe they have had someone come forward later in the day with new evidence, maybe this case needed more time for the CPS to meet its evidential requirements.

I doubt the political pressure issue in this case, and IMO the longer the time from incident to charge, the less pressure there is.


Again, I mean politics in the very loosest sense, more about PR for the police and prosecutors, perhaps.

And even after ten months has elapsed, they still have to either announce that they've brought charges, or that no one will be charged in relation to the incident, the latter of which wouldn't look good with two fatalities involved.

I mean, looking at the Echo's headlines they've obviously already assumed an element of guilt by using the term 'BMW driver' in the headlines - you couldn't imagine 'Ford driver' or 'Vauxhall driver'.

But presumably the problem here is that, assuming there's no CCTV coverage at the junction, because it was 5am there were quite possibly no other witnesses or conclusive evidence, or at least possibly no witnesses have come forward.

So both the main witnesses dead, and it's not clear whether the PHD was ever in a position to make any kind of statement to police.

But the likelihood is that one or other of the cars has gone through a red light, and no doubt the accused is blaming the PHD :-|


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:13 am 
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and of course as there were no survivors from the PHD nobody would be able to testify that the light was green for the PH

BUT the idiot in the BMW must have been going at some speed to do that amount of damage

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:00 pm 
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So both the main witnesses dead

Sadly yes, but skid mark evidence is very technical, and even sometimes sat navs tell a story.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:02 am 
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edders23 wrote:
and of course as there were no survivors from the PHD nobody would be able to testify that the light was green for the PH

BUT the idiot in the BMW must have been going at some speed to do that amount of damage


Well best guess does probably look like the Beemer driver was at fault, but hardly beyond the realms of possibility that the PHD ran a red light, or was otherwise at fault.

The Mondeo PHV was obviously hit side-on by the BMW. It was on three-lane dual carriageway, 40mph limit, and the PHV was presumably joining it from the light-controlled T-junction.

The junctions here are incredibly wide, with huge amounts of open space, and I would imagine that at 5am 60mph would be perfectly safe, assuming of course that every driver was otherwise doing what they should be doing.

But even at the legal 40mph, a side-on collision is going to do a huge amount of damage.

So the BMW hits the Mondeo side-on, the Mondeo ends up beside the traffic island/central reservation, and the BMW ends up on the slip road emerging from the T-junction, ie behind the leftmost police officer in this photo.

Image

I'm guessing that the BMW driver was travelling in the direction as per Google Streetview here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.45934 ... 384!8i8192

The Mondeo PHV emerged from where the four-door green Mini to the left is waiting at the lights to join the dual carriageway. (The Mini actually looks like it's gone through the lights, but has been unable to join the main carriageway due to traffic backed up, so has ended up stuck in no-man's land as the lights on the main carriageway have turned green :oops: The white car to the extreme left is presumably at the correct stop line for the lights.)

So the Mondeo ends up on the traffic island/central reservation close to the middle of Streetview. The BMW ends up on the slip road joining the main carriageway towards the left of Streetview, just past the railings, but well before the bus stop.

Anyway, that's my best guess as to the basic movements, but could obviously be totally different.

But, as Sussex alludes, should be easy enough for the expert RTA investigators to work out the basic speeds, positioning and trajectories.

But no sign of any roadside CCTV on Streetview, so if no dashcam evidence or independent witnesses then presumably the huge unknown will be what the traffic lights were showing at the time of the incident.

Doubt if the BMW driver would admit to running a red light, and chances are that the PHD wouldn't admit to taking a risk either, assuming he was ever able to give a statement to police :-|

(Spent ages the other night trying to reconcile the press photos to what's shown of the junction on Google Streetview. Until I realised I was looking at the wrong junction on Streetview ](*,)

Was misled by this BBC report with the photo caption: 'The crash happened at the junction of the East Lancashire Road and Stonebridge Lane in February'.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-m ... e-50956410

The dual carriageway is the East Lancashire Road right enough, but it's not at the Stonebridge Lane junction - it's actually the next one up at Bridgehouse Lane :roll: Journalists, eh? :wink: )


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:38 pm 
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As SW mentioned no sign of CCTV at that junction, but maybe the pub has some at another angle.

There might also be CCTV elsewhere on the route the BMW took, which could give a taste of the speed/driving standard that the BMW was doing prior to the incident.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:44 pm 
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Well this is a bit of a turn up - presumably the evidence was overwhelming after all. Not really much said in the article other than what we know already, so this is just the new stuff.

Sentencing will be interesting, though :-|


Man admits to causing taxi driver and passenger's deaths

https://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/182 ... rs-deaths/

A ST HELENS man has admitted to causing the deaths of a taxi driver and a passenger in a crash on the East Lancs Road in court today (Tuesday, February 25).

Ryan Howard, 27, of Windermere Avenue, Clinkham Wood, appeared at Liverpool Crown Court charged with two counts of death by dangerous driving.[...]

Appearing at Liverpool Crown Court, Howard pleaded guilty to two counts of causing death by dangerous driving.

He will be sentenced back at Liverpool Crown Court on Friday, March 20.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:32 pm 
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StuartW wrote:
Sentencing will be interesting, though :-|

We really don't know enough info for a guess on the final sentence.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp ... ne-Web.pdf

It ranges from 3 years to 14 years depending on the level of severity. And of course the driver will get a third off for his guilty plea.

As for what led to the guilty plea, who knows, could have been something he said when arrested or in interview, might have been the CCTV, might have been someone else in the motor giving evidence, or maybe a combination of all three.

But the good news is that justice has prevailed so far.

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