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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 7:04 am 
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Not a taxi licence, obviously, but it's local and the same committee that handles the taxi stuff. And quite interesting from a personal perspective, although I'm not saying why :-# 8-[


Man gets St Andrews street trader licence despite police objection

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/lo ... objection/

Emma O'Neill

May 14 2019, 8.42am


A Fife man has been granted a street trader licence in spite of police objecting to the move.

Alfred Petrie, an artist from Newport-on-Tay, has been granted a licence to deal art in St Andrews’ Church Square at weekends by the region’s regulation and licensing committee.

The committee heard that Mr Petrie pled guilty in January that he used threatening and abusive behaviour towards a young woman on a train to Edinburgh on July 11, 2018.

Sergeant Gordon Hood told councillors that the applicant was the subject of a report to police after striking up conversation with the woman in question on the train.

Sergeant Hood said: “He stated ‘This is going to be the best journey of your life, I’m going to draw you’. The applicant started to draw pictures of the female in a sketch pad making the female feel uneasy.

“The applicant then moved seats so he was directly opposite the female, asking personal questions including how old she was. She told him she was 24-years-old but it is alleged the applicant told her he thought she was 14 or 15-years-old.

“The applicant then drew an image in the sketch pad of two females hugging and told the female it was her and her sister. This caused the female to feel panicked and sick. The applicant then drew an image of a naked female looking in a mirror as seen from behind.

“The female had become frightened and the applicant asked if he had crossed a line. She replied that he had.

“The applicant then became aggressive, shouting, ranting, slamming the table. The female described feeling being frozen in fear due to his actions.”

However, Sergeant Hood stressed that the information provided was the woman’s account of what happened on the train, noting it had been vigorously disputed by Mr Petrie.

Mr Petrie maintained: “I’d like to make one thing crystal clear, that at no time did I say to a young lady that I thought she was 14 or 15 years of age. That’s got an inference that I was trying to groom a teenager or something. It’s nonsense.

“I was in conversation with someone and I gave her a sketch book that contained a relatively inoffensive picture of a nude lady from the back. That picture was not drawn on the train it was already in the book. I never drew any picture that was supposed to be of her or her sister.”

Convener of the board Carol Lindsay suggested Mr Petrie had appeared “quite aggressive” in front of the board, to which he replied: “I’m nervous, I’m not an aggressive person. It was a hot summer day and I might have been in high spirits.”

SNP councillor Lea McLelland also suggested that Mr Petrie’s behaviour had been “erratic” when Sergeant Hood was reading out the complaint.

“I do believe you reacted like this on that train that day and that would cause that girl to be in fear,” she said.

Councillor McLelland proposed that Mr Petrie not be granted a license, but SNP Councillor David MacDiarmid proposed an amendment to grant his licence due to it being a misunderstanding.

He said: “I think the most important thing is that he is an artist by trade which would explain why he was drawing in the first place.”

The amendment to grant a licence was passed eight votes to three.


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 9:08 pm 
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Interesting that you need to be a fit and proper person to sell art in Scotland.

:-k

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 9:49 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
Interesting that you need to be a fit and proper person to sell art in Scotland.

:-k


To sell art as a street trader, at least - I'm assuming he's got some kind of pop-up stall in town.

The street trader scheme is the same one used to licence the pedicabs, which grace our streets at least once or twice a year =D>


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 1:49 pm 
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Still seems very strange to me.

Licensing is all about safe guarding, so what safeguard issues are there in selling stuff in a market?

Yes I'm with everyone in that I don't want dirty pervs out and about, but surely even someone with a 100% pukka DBS could employ Jake the Ripper to sell stuff at their market stall. :-k

So what's the point?

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 6:10 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
Still seems very strange to me.

Licensing is all about safe guarding, so what safeguard issues are there in selling stuff in a market?

Yes I'm with everyone in that I don't want dirty pervs out and about, but surely even someone with a 100% pukka DBS could employ Jake the Ripper to sell stuff at their market stall. :-k

So what's the point?


Well by the looks of it any *employee* of a street trader needs a licence too.

Not sure the precise reason why licences are needed, but if you look at the kind of activities covered (most obviously ice cream vans and burger bars outside schools) then that could provide an opportunity for grooming etc, or even selling drugs :shock:

There's also been stuff in the past about selling junk food near schools, and that sort of thing.

But more generally I think it's about public nuisance, noise from loudspeakers, litter, grease and waste from snack bars, obstructing the road, and mobile services like fish vans are only allowed to stop at one spot for 15 minutes, or they need a static licence, again presumably to prevent public nuisance etc. There's rules about not parking too close to a pedestrian crossing, for example, and more specific rules about mobile car valeting and wheelie-bin cleaning :-s such as not letting waste water ice up in winter or not suggesting the provider is endorsed by Fife Council (which presumably relates to the wheelie bin cleaning in particular).

Fortunately there's no need for a licence to sell newspapers, milk or coal =D>

Perhaps selling art isn't the most obvious example of something that needs licensed, but presumably they have to do it anyway if it's not exempt.

The guidance notes and actual conditions are on the application pack here, which provide a flavour of what it's all about.

http://publications.fifedirect.org.uk/c ... Trader.doc

But I'd just assumed there was a similar scheme in place in England?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:24 am 
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Well looks like he's lost the licence after all. But we don't know why. Because it's a secret :-$


Newport artist’s street trader licence suspended by committee at private hearing

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/lo ... e-hearing/

A Fife artist has been stripped of his street trader’s licence just six weeks after it was granted against police advice.

Councillors gave Alfred Petrie a licence to deal art on May 13, despite hearing he used threatening and abusive behaviour towards a young woman on a train, leaving her feeling “panicked and sick”.

Mr Petrie was called back before the same councillors at a special meeting of Fife Council’s regulation and licensing committee on June 24, however, where members decided to suspend the licence until its expiry date.

It is understood new information on the 59-year-old came to light after the original hearing.

After listening to a police report during the second meeting, which was held in private, members ruled Mr Petrie was no longer considered a fit and proper person to hold the licence.

The permit, allowing him to sell art in Church Square, St Andrews, at weekends, was suspended until February 12.

Details of the new information about Mr Petrie, from Newport-on-Tay, have not been made public, although it has been confirmed he was present at the meeting and had an opportunity to be heard.

Committee convener, SNP councillor Carol Lindsay, said she could not comment on the case as it was heard in private.

The committee was told last month that the trader had pled guilty in January to a charge that he used threatening and abusive behaviour towards a woman on a train to Edinburgh on July 11 last year.

During the original hearing, Sergeant Gordon Hood said Mr Petrie had struck up a conversation with the woman, telling her: “This is going to be the best journey of your life. I’m going to draw you.”

He said Mr Petrie moved seats so he was opposite the woman and began asking her personal questions.

“The applicant then drew an image in a sketch pad of two females hugging and told the female it was her and her sister,” said Mr Hood.

“This caused the female to feel panicked and sick.

“The applicant then drew an image of a naked female looking in a mirror as seen from behind.”

Mr Hood said Mr Petrie later became aggressive and was shouting, ranting and slamming the table.

“The female described feeling being frozen in fear due to his actions,” he said.

The sergeant added that the applicant disputed the woman’s account.

The Courier made a number of attempts to contact Mr Petrie following the licensing committee’s decision, but was unable to reach him.

At the time of the court case, he said the sketch book had contained a “relatively inoffensive” picture of a nude woman from the back.

“That picture was not drawn on the train,” he said. “It was already in the book.

“I never drew any picture that was supposed to be her or her sister.”


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:02 pm 
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Well looks like he's lost the licence after all. But we don't know why. Because it's a secret :-$

I suspect something else from his past turned up.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:08 pm 
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It is understood new information on the 59-year-old came to light after the original hearing.

Maybe I should have read the article first, rather than SW's opening comment. #-o

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:22 am 
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I suppose it's now fair to assume that this is why his licence was suspended, for almost identical incidents which meant that his licence was disputed in the first place.

But see another case from 2014 below this one :shock:


Man charged with harassing women and giving them lewd drawings at various Dundee and Fife locations

https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/m ... locations/

A man has been charged with harassing women and giving them lewd drawings.

Alfred Petrie, 60, is accused of targeting three women between May 2018 and April this year.

Prosecutors allege Petrie approached all three, who were unknown to him, and engaged them in conversation before causing them to suffer fear and alarm.

He is firstly charged with approaching a woman at Seagate Bus Station on May 15 2018 before sitting down beside her, acting in an intimidating manner and drawing a picture of a woman in a state of undress before giving it to her.

On September 20 last year, Petrie allegedly sat down next to a 15-year-old girl on Whitehall Street before swearing, acting in an erratic manner and giving her similar drawings.

A third charge states that on April 22 this year on a train journey between Edinburgh Waverley Station and Leuchars, Petrie asked a woman personal questions, shook her hand, made personal remarks, drew pictures that he gave to her before saying he was going to draw a nude image.

Petrie, of West Road, Newport-on-Tay, had his case continued without plea until November 1.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Just found this earlier piece today. Funny this wasn't mentioned when he got his street trader's licence. Presumably it was on his record, but just not included in the press report.

Man ad­mits sex as­sault

9 May 2014

A Fife man who sex­u­ally as­saulted a 15-year-old girl as she was walk­ing home af­ter a night out with a friend was or­dered to carry out 250 hours of un­paid work at Cu­par Sher­iff Court.

Al­fred Petrie, 54, of West Road, New­port, ad­mit­ted at­tempt­ing to kiss the girl on the B946 New­port to Tay­port road, east of the slip road to the Tay Bridge, on May 11 2013.

The court heard the girl had con­sumed al­co­hol prior to be­ing ap­proached by Petrie.

Sher­iff Charles Mac­nair im­posed a com­mu­nity pay­back or­der with su­per­vi­sion for two years, with a re­quire­ment for 250 hours of un­paid work to be car­ried out within the first six months.

He also or­dered Petrie to pay £300 in com­pen­sa­tion to his vic­tim and placed him on the sex of­fend­ers reg­is­ter for two years.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:35 am 
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Sussex wrote:
Quote:
Well looks like he's lost the licence after all. But we don't know why. Because it's a secret :-$

I suspect something else from his past turned up.


The incident that was raised when he was granted the licence took place in July 2018, and the licence granted in May 2019, but these latest charges relate to about the same time in 2018 to around the time he was granted the licence, which was suspended a couple of months later.

So I wonder if the (alleged) victims* here maybe hadn't reported these incidents, and only did so when they read about Petrie being granted the licence, and then they complained to the police, because the very similar nature of the incidents would mean that they would realise it was the same guy? Hence the subsequent licence suspension, and now the charges.


* I read that the report into the Met's handling of the Carl Beech/Westminster paedophile allegations said that they shouldn't use the word 'victims' until there's a conviction, because the use of the word implied that the allegations must be true. Innocent until proven guilty, and all that.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:33 pm 
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* I read that the report into the Met's handling of the Carl Beech/Westminster paedophile allegations said that they shouldn't use the word 'victims' until there's a conviction, because the use of the word implied that the allegations must be true. Innocent until proven guilty, and all that.

In many cases a victim is a victim because someone has done something to them.

Just because a person is alleged to have done something to that victim, or is proved innocent of doing something to a victim, doesn't mean there isn't a victim, just that the person didn't contribute to the victim becoming a victim.

Is that clear? :D

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:35 am 
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Sussex wrote:
Just because a person is alleged to have done something to that victim, or is proved innocent of doing something to a victim, doesn't mean there isn't a victim, just that the person didn't contribute to the victim becoming a victim.


Unless the 'victim' is making it all up, of course :-s [-(

But it's a bit like the contempt of court stuff in press reporting, I suppose - once someone is in the frame, the newspapers can only report the bare facts to avoid prejudicing a fair trial. Innocent until proven guilty, and all that.

So I suppose using the word 'victim' in different contexts is all about emphasis, balance and nuance, etc.

Anyway, worth reading the Spiked! article about the Henriques report (can't be bothered with the whole report myself) but the most relevant part is:

Luke Gittos, lawyer, wrote:
First, Henriques [author of the Met's independent report into the Carl Beech allegations] recommends that police stop using the term ‘victim’ during an investigation, and instead revert to the term ‘complainant’.

This practice began with Operation Yewtree’s report of its investigation into Saville, titled Giving Victims a Voice. This step was taken because Saville was dead and there was no way to test the evidence against him. The police simply assumed allegations against him to be true and therefore that all complainants were indeed victims. This then became policy for all abuse investigations.

Henriques quotes guidance for officers from Operation Hydrant, written by Simon Bailey, national police lead for child protection and abuse investigations. As Henriques notes, it consistently uses the term ‘victim’ to describe those who make allegations. Henriques says ‘the entire judicial process… is engaged in determining whether or not a complainant is indeed a victim’ and using the term at the outset of an investigation ‘is simply inaccurate and should cease’.

Once complainants had been transformed into ‘victims’, it followed that police should ‘believe’ what these victims were telling them.


https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/10/1 ... echs-lies/


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