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Aberdeen PH drivers want clarity over bus gate fines
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Author:  Sussex [ Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Aberdeen PH drivers want clarity over bus gate fines
Private hire drivers call for clarity over Aberdeen bus gate use after ‘hundreds of pounds in fines’ issued

Struggling private hire taxi drivers have called for Aberdeen City Council to provide clarity over its current rules after being handed “hundreds of pounds in fines” for using city bus gates.

City council leaders have long been pushing for a review of bus gate access through the city.

Currently only yellow plate taxis are permitted access to bus gates, while private hire taxis are prohibited and subject to fines should they use them.

One driver, who spoke to the Press and Journal, said he had received fines of around £240 in one day.

He also called for clarity from Aberdeen City Council over its use of signage.

“I’ve received a stack of fines and there are no clear signs for these bus gates – they just say taxi, bus and bikes are allowed,” he said.

“If the signs are wrong, then the council need to change the signage or let us use these bus gates.

“The same signage that’s used for bus gates are used for bus lanes and we’re allowed to use those. It’s a clarity matter.”

Private hire drivers believed they were granted access to the Bedford Road bus gate in November, but it is understood fines are still being handed out.

The driver said he and other private hire taxi operators also need clarification over a Union Street bus gate.

He said: “We contacted the council stating that this was a busy, busy route for us, but we’ve received no response.

“Having to go around these bus gates is resulting in inflated taxi fares for customers.

“We’re not allowed to use taxi ranks, that’s normal, but to be governed by a separate set of rules that says we can’t use sections of the road used by other taxis is a bit of a joke.”

It is understood that in November 2019, the city council’s Operational Delivery Committee agreed to instruct the chief officer of operations and protective services to report back to the committee on the potential impact of allowing private hire vehicles through the city’s remaining bus gates, where taxis are already permitted.

However, no decision has yet been taken on the move.

An Aberdeen City Council spokeswoman said: “A report went to the Operational Delivery committee in January 2020 following which the legal process to make the relevant changes to Bedford Road commenced.

“Unfortunately, this and similar processes for TECA and Dubford have been delayed due to the ongoing Covid-19 pandemic.

“We appreciate that it is a difficult time for everyone including private hire taxi drivers, however to avoid being fined they must continue to use alternative routes meantime.”
Author:  skippy41 [ Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aberdeen PH drivers want clarity over bus gate fines
Thought that was stating the the obvious, being a private hire
Author:  StuartW [ Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aberdeen PH drivers want clarity over bus gate fines
skippy41 wrote:
Thought that was stating the the obvious, being a private hire

Well that was covered in the article, but obviously there's some crossed-wires going on here.

But if the trade, the press AND the council are using the term 'private hire taxi' then it's hardly a surprise if there's a lot of confusion on the issue :-s

Of course, south of the border the term hackney carriage further confuses things. But the legislation here in Scotland is quite clear - a 'for hire' vehicle is either a 'taxi' or a 'private hire car'. There's no such thing as a 'private hire taxi'.

(Of course, not unusual to see 'private hire taxi' in press reports and suchlike, but in the context of a technical thing like bus lanes and signage, there should be a bit more accuracy, particularly from the council [-X

Please note also that in Scotland it's a private hire CAR, not a private hire VEHICLE [-(
Author:  edders23 [ Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aberdeen PH drivers want clarity over bus gate fines
Quote:
Currently only yellow plate taxis are permitted access to bus gates, while private hire taxis are prohibited and subject to fines should they use them.


that looks pretty clear to me!
Author:  StuartW [ Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aberdeen PH drivers want clarity over bus gate fines
edders23 wrote:
Quote:
Currently only yellow plate taxis are permitted access to bus gates, while private hire taxis are prohibited and subject to fines should they use them.


that looks pretty clear to me!

So if the sign says 'taxi', does it mean a 'yellow plate taxi' or a 'private hire taxi', or both?

There's also the inconsistency between the bus lanes and gates - both allowed to use former, but only 'yellow plate taxis' allowed to use the latter.

But the signs are the same for the lanes and gates, hence the confusion #-o
Author:  edders23 [ Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Aberdeen PH drivers want clarity over bus gate fines
Private hire is a CAR not a taxi!

Many PH firms incorporate the word in their name but they are NOT taxis
Author:  StuartW [ Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aberdeen PH drivers want clarity over bus gate fines
edders23 wrote:
Private hire is a CAR not a taxi!

Many PH firms incorporate the word in their name but they are NOT taxis

At least we and the vast majority of regular readers can agree on something =D>

But completely missing the point of the article and thread ](*,)
Author:  agabbycabbie [ Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aberdeen PH drivers want clarity over bus gate fines
Just had a look at this road and it’s bus gate, the signage says, cycles and buses only, no mention of taxis as well, unless it’s been amended recently to include taxis
A search of the traffic regulation order for this road states buses and cycles only as well, which would mean taxis as in Hackney carriages are also banned from using this bus gate on Bedford Road, which legally means every Hackney/Taxi should also face the same fine for its use as the private hire vehicle drivers are, if the council are turning a blind eye to taxis using this route, I would say they are on very sticky ground as they them selves cannot override what a traffic regulation says.
I did have a quick look at normal bus lane in Aberdeen and the are sign posted as busses and taxis only as you would expect, I have no idea what the crack is up there, our council allows taxis and private hire vehicles to use bus lanes and the one bus gate we have.
I have no idea why individual councils feel the need to discriminate between taxi and private hire vehicle use of bus gates and bus lanes, as it is only the customer that suffers from their stupidity.

We had 2 in York a few years ago that did not have a valid traffic regulation order on them, basically meaning the council where fining road users unlawfully.
The council in the end had to reimburse all the fines, and removed one of them.
I did take a couple of screenshots of the signs and the implied TRO, but can see how to post them if you can.
Author:  roythebus [ Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aberdeen PH drivers want clarity over bus gate fines
the answers lie in 2 bits of regulations, the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) which specifies the wording, shapes of signs, what can and can't be done, the lot. It clearly defines what a taxi is.

The other bit is the local Traffic Regulation Order. What is the wording on that (if any)? I've won many parking tickets on that basis. You can usually download the TROs from the council website.

The council are wrong to say only "yellow badge cars" can use the bus gate, ANY licenced hackney carriage can use it if that's what the sign says.

If we refer back to the London Addison Lee private hire/use of bus lanes case that went to appeal, they lost. The judgement was that private hire cars aren't public transport. So I suspect if this case ever gets to court, that judegment would have to be taken into account.
Author:  StuartW [ Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Aberdeen PH drivers want clarity over bus gate fines
agabbycabbie wrote:
Just had a look at this road and it’s bus gate, the signage says, cycles and buses only, no mention of taxis as well, unless it’s been amended recently to include taxis

Indeed, I looked at the bus gate/lane photos the other day, and the *gate* photos signage I found didn't include the word 'taxi', while the bus *lanes* do seem to include them. But apparently this seems to be a sign for some kind of temporary bus gate installed recently:

Image

This seems to be one of the older signs for the *gate*, without the word 'taxi':

Image

But the article says the disputed signs include the word 'taxi', so maybe they've been updated since the photo above, but obviously there's an inconsistency if 'taxi' for the bus lanes is deemed to include PH, but not for the gates.

But reading the article and even the basic terminology suggests there's a lot of inconsistency and confusion - even the council uses the term 'private hire taxi', while the Scottish legislation is quite clear about the distinction between a 'taxi' and 'private hire car'. The term hackney carriage just isn't used up here in official circles, so no confusion in that regard.

Also found this from 2018, which says the gates were installed in 2016, thus suggesting that 'taxis' were only granted access later, which might explain why 'taxi' isn't included in the earlier signage above:

Council to hold consultation over Aberdeen taxi drivers’ access to bus gate

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp/new ... bus-gate1/

A consultation is expected to begin soon into granting taxi drivers access to a controversial bus gate.


So reading the article at the top of the thread and looking at it all in the round, I suspect the intention was to allow PH to use the gate as well, but people in the council's transport department possibly didn't appreciate the technical taxi/PH distinction.

I should have said as well that the two sides of the trade are pretty integrated in Aberdeen, and PHDs use meters set at the taxi tariff, and drivers all do the same knowledge test etc.

Very few PH cars at all in Aberdeen at one point actually, and I think main reason numbers have risen is due to a taxi cap and WAV spec for new plates.

Twenty years ago Aberdeen almost 100% saloon HCs.
Author:  edders23 [ Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Aberdeen PH drivers want clarity over bus gate fines
to me that sign is clear Taxis allowed ALL other vehicles not allowed which includes PH.

The gripe is that the regs aren't being extended to permit PH which we have debated a hundred times on here about cases up and down the UK.
Author:  roythebus [ Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Aberdeen PH drivers want clarity over bus gate fines
The sign in the top picture clearly prohibits any vehicles except buses, taxis and cycles. and "authorised vehicles". This term usually includes emergency services, vehicles used for road repairs, universal postal providers and the like and "may" include private hire cars if they are "authorised" in the Traffic Regulation Order.
It appears the bus lane has been taken out of use possibly under the covid emergency laws to make way for social distancing on the pavements but the road markings have not been amended.

The sign in the bottom picture clearly prohibits ALL vehicles except buses and bicycles. But again there is probably an exemption for emergency vehicles only depending on the Traffic Regulation Order. Taxis not allowed!

The devil is in the detail of the TRO, all usually available online.
Author:  Karga [ Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aberdeen PH drivers want clarity over bus gate fines
What they need is better signage. Bus lanes are about the only place you see those signs and if a PH driver sees one of those signs and is told he is allowed to use the bus lanes it's a fair expectation that seeing the same sign on a bus gate would mean the same thing.

I understand that it'll be in the TRO, but who actually goes round reading those?
Author:  StuartW [ Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aberdeen PH drivers want clarity over bus gate fines
Edders wrote:
to me that sign is clear Taxis allowed ALL other vehicles not allowed which includes PH.

Sign itself is clear enough. But it states in the article that same sign used for bus lanes, which PH are given access to.

And the council refers to 'private hire taxis'.

Thought I'd saved you the trouble of actually reading the article when I said this earlier, but obviously not :roll:
Author:  StuartW [ Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Aberdeen PH drivers want clarity over bus gate fines
Karga wrote:
What they need is better signage. Bus lanes are about the only place you see those signs and if a PH driver sees one of those signs and is told he is allowed to use the bus lanes it's a fair expectation that seeing the same sign on a bus gate would mean the same thing.

Correct =D>
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