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UK cab trade debate and advice
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:52 pm 
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Summary of chancellor's statement:

- Fourth grant payable at 80% of profits, covering February - April.

- Fifth grant available from late-July, covering period to September, set at 80% of profits if turnover down at least 30%, but only 30% of profits if turnover drop is less than 30%.

- Scheme to be extended to newly self-employed. Fourth and fifth grants available to those who have filed a tax return this year.


So basically the grant about to be paid will be at same rate as last time.

As will the summer grant, but only if your turnover has dropped more than 30% - think he said *turnover*, rather than *profits*, but will have to check.

And a lower grant payable if turnover fall less than 30%, and I think he said the rate of grant would be 30%?

But don't think he said when current grant will be paid, which was one of the main things I wanted to know. The last grant was in the bank by about this time in the grant period, ie early December.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:54 pm 
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So the summer grant will cover a five month period, am I right? :-s


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:10 pm 
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Aye, Seiss Grant 5: he did say those with more than a 30% Drop In Turnover will get the full 80% grant and those experienced less than a 30% drop In Turnover will be offered a 30% grant.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:30 pm 
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Aye, basing it on a percentage drop of turnover will be interesting, and no doubt a major discussion point.

Anyway, I've amended my first post to include that the newly self-employed who have recently filed a tax return will be eligible for the fourth and fifth grants.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:30 pm 
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And I downloaded the relevant part of the chancellor's speech, and he said SEISS would continue to September, but the fifth and final grant would cover three months (May, June and July, presumably), so what about August and September?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:55 pm 
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Chancellor said fifth grant available from late-July, so that's almost two months later than the third grant in relation to the period it's supposed to cover.

So I'm wondering if the fifth grant might actually be three months profit to cover five months, so it's a bit of a sleight of hand, and while he's saying it's set at 80% of profits, in effect it might actually be around 50% for the five months.

Maybe I'm just being cynical, but there's definitely some information missing somewhere.

No doubt there will be more official information online today sometime, but can't see anything at the moment.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:20 pm 
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Some sources reporting that applications for the fourth grant won't open until April.

So that's more than a month later than the equivalent date for when applications for the third grant opened.

(Third grant covered November - January, and early applicants could apply at end of November, rest of us early December. So fourth grant covers February to April, yet we can't apply until the last month of the period covered? :roll: )


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:51 pm 
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Looks like my suspicions were correct. So fourth grant will be the same 80% as the last one, but will be paid *two months* later than the last one :sad:

The fifth grant will cover five months, but calculated on the same basis as the fourth grant, so effectively the rate will be 48% over five months :roll:

So I suppose the good news is that two more grants will be paid of the same amount we got late-November/early-December, but first one not paid till late-April, and second one not till late-July.

So if you got £4,000 (say) towards the end of last year, you'll get the same amount late-April and late-July.

Of course, the late-July payment depends on turnover dropping 30% or more, but it's not clear what period that will relate to.

But if your turnover has fallen less than 30%, then the fifth grant will be 30% of profits rather than 80%.

So if you only qualify for the 30% grant in July, if you got £4,000 last time round you would get £1,500. (Multiplying your last 80% grant by 0.375 gives the equivalent at 30%.)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:14 pm 
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This is the official HMRC statement:


Self-Employment Income Support Scheme fourth grant

Updated 3 March 2021

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -extension

The UK government recognises the continued impact that coronavirus (COVID-19) has had on the self-employed and announced in November that there would be a fourth grant.

At the Budget it was confirmed that the fourth SEISS grant will be set at 80% of 3 months’ average trading profits, paid out in a single instalment, capped at £7,500. The fourth grant will take into account 2019 to 2020 tax returns and will be open to those who became self-employed in tax year 2019 to 2020. The rest of the eligibility criteria remain unchanged.

Your eligibility for the scheme will now be based on your submitted 2019 to 2020 tax return. This may also affect the amount of the fourth grant which could be higher or lower than previous grants you may have received.

1. Who can claim

To be eligible for the fourth grant you must be a self-employed individual or a member of a partnership.

To work out your eligibility we will first look at your 2019 to 2020 Self Assessment tax return. Your trading profits must be no more than £50,000 and at least equal to your non-trading income.

If you’re not eligible based on your 2019 to 2020 Self Assessment tax return, we will also look at the tax years 2016 to 2017, 2017 to 2018, 2018 to 2019 as well as 2019 to 2020.

You must also have traded in both tax years:

    • 2019 to 2020 and submitted your tax return by 2 March 2021
    • 2020 to 2021

You must either:

    • be currently trading but are impacted by reduced demand due to coronavirus
    • have been trading but are temporarily unable to do so due to coronavirus

You must also declare that:

    • you intend to continue to trade
    • you reasonably believe there will be a significant reduction in your trading profits due to reduced business activity, capacity, demand or inability to trade due to coronavirus

2. What the fourth grant covers

The fourth grant will provide a taxable grant calculated at 80% of 3 months’ average trading profits. The fourth grant will be paid out in a single instalment and capped at £7,500 in total.

3. How to claim

To allow us to process recently submitted 2019 to 2020 Self Assessment tax returns, the online claims service for the fourth grant will be available from late April 2021 until 31 May 2021.

If you are eligible, HMRC will contact you in mid-April to give you your personal claim date. This will be the date that you can make your claim from.

There will be more guidance about the fourth grant in due course.

4. Further support

The UK government has also announced that there will be a fifth and final grant covering May to September.

You will be able to claim from late July if you are eligible for the fifth grant.

The amount of the fifth grant will be determined by how much your turnover has been reduced in the year April 2020 to April 2021.

The fifth grant will be worth:

    • 80% of 3 months’ average trading profits, capped at £7,500, for those with a turnover reduction of 30% or more
    • 30% of 3 months’ average trading profits, capped at £2,850, for those with a turnover reduction of less than 30%

Further details will be provided on the fifth grant in due course.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:15 pm 
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HMRC wrote:
To allow us to process recently submitted 2019 to 2020 Self Assessment tax returns, the online claims service for the fourth grant will be available from late April 2021 until 31 May 2021.

Ah, so that's the reason for the delay on payment of the fourth grant - they're using the info from the recently submitted 2019-20 tax returns :sad:

But it's not clear whether they'll be using them to calculate the grants, in which case the grant figures might be different. But I'm guessing it's just so that the newly self-employed can be brought into the scheme, so for most of us it might not make any difference to the amount of grant paid :?

HMRC wrote:
The amount of the fifth grant will be determined by how much your turnover has been reduced in the year April 2020 to April 2021.

Wonder how that will work. Effectively that's for the period covered by your tax return which needn't be submitted until January 2022 :-k

And do they mean turnover as per your tax return, or turnover for the precise April-April period? My tax return for that period is based on my financial year to 30 November 2020 :-s


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:27 pm 
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HMRC wrote:
Your eligibility for the scheme will now be based on your submitted 2019 to 2020 tax return. This may also affect the amount of the fourth grant which could be higher or lower than previous grants you may have received.

So your *eligibility* will depend on the *latest* tax return.

But whether that will be taken into account for actually calculating the profit figures isn't clear. Recall that it was the average over three years, so maybe they'll drop the first year, and include the latest year instead. Or they could average it over four years :-o

The word 'may' that I've highlighted suggests they maybe haven't decided that yet.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:45 pm 
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Wonder how that will work. Effectively that's for the period covered by your tax return which needn't be submitted until January 2022 :-k

It will have to be a tick the box question as there is no way they can know what our 2020/21 return will be until at least the middle of 2021 or Jan 2022.

And the whole point of claiming for many is that they have had no income or virtually no income in the 2020/21 tax period, thus they would be basically being financially penalised for not working, as their grant would be based on no income.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:50 pm 
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I think the April delay is to deal with the folks who are recently self-employed and have had nothing from SEISS.

As for the 80%/30% issue, IMO 95% plus of the taxi/PH trade will be in the 80% pot. Let's face it even if someone is say 25% down, the chances of them not putting in for the 80% are slim. :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:54 pm 
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Quote:
To allow us to process recently submitted 2019 to 2020 Self Assessment tax returns.

I also think that's unfair for many.

The 2019-2020 return will include Feb and March 2020 which was when many self-employed were earning sweet FA, due to the issues the SEISS is meant to help alleviate.

Particularly the taxi/PH trade.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:08 pm 
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I am fairly sure that he said that the 4th and 5th payments for those who qualified for the first 3 payment would be the same as those but people who submitted their 2019/20 tax return by midnight last night can claim for the 4th and 5th payments based on those figures. So if you got £5000 in the first 3 payments then you will get £5,000 for the 4th and 5th payments. Those that did not qualify for the first 3 payment but now qualify will get 80% of their profits pro rata.

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