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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 11:36 pm 
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Uber asked the court to define the law, in light of the Supreme Court decision they lost in London.

They picked Sefton as an example.

I highly doubt it was because Sefton was particularly bad in this respect.

The court basically said operators are the principle in relation to contract law.

The judge also said, more politely than this, that he couldn't give a monkeys about the VAT issue.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 7:45 am 
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Uber chose sefton because they wanted to make sure a major business rival also had to pay VAT in the same way

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 2:36 pm 
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Having briefly relooked at the judgement, Uber asked the court to relook at the 1976 act following the Supreme Court judgement in respect of the 1998 act.

Basically the court said the operator/principal rule laid down in the Supreme Court 1998 judgement equally applies to operators licensed under the 1976 act.

To answer SW’s question as to what Sefton were doing wrong, well the answer really is not a lot.

They were licensing operators correctly, but it is suggested that to ensure the operators they license are fit and proper they need to confirm the operator/principle rule.

Personally I’m not convinced that’s necessary, in the same way drivers don’t need to confirm that they will comply with speeding and drink drive laws. The laws are the laws.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 3:45 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
Personally I’m not convinced that’s necessary, in the same way drivers don’t need to confirm that they will comply with speeding and drink drive laws. The laws are the laws.

Indeed, but I suppose it's as much about outlining and confirming operators' contractual position and taxation responsibilities. And, as per what you've said in the past, it's interesting how all this might intersect with operators' fit and proper status :-o

And, for what it's worth, noticed this in the Darlington Council paper referred to in another article. Obviously all the local authorities are waiting for guidance from on high before they do anything about it all :-o

But, as highlighted below, the council here certainly makes it sound like they're maybe expecting it all to impact on how operators are licensed. And, as regards employment status as well as the VAT thing :-o :-o

(And it's arguable that Sefton *didn't* take a neutral position on it all, but that's kind of academic now. And couldn't help notice the clunky English in the first sentence below, but I'm saying nothing :---) )

Darlington Council wrote:
We are currently awaiting a government response and guidance after Uber successfully
challenged Sefton Council and a small number of regional operators in July 2023 that will
change the landscape of the private hire vehicle sector.
Sefton Council, who took a neutral
stance throughout the court case, and regional operators sought to challenge a declaration
that the contract for private hire transport should be between operators and the
passenger, not between drivers and passengers.

In 2021, Uber were defeated in a similar action in the High Court under separate legislation
covering only London. As a result, Uber was forced to change its business model contract
directly with passengers rather than classifying itself as an agent. This has helped confirm
driver status as workers with statutory protections.
As Uber becomes the principal rather
than the agent, it is now liable for VAT. Uber took this action in order to create a ‘level
playing field’ across the country.

Operators around the country are now concerned that they could now be forced to raise
their prices by up to a fifth as the ruling will likely mean paying VAT on journeys. This price
rise is likely to be passed to the customer unless government make private hire journeys
zero rated for tax purposes. Employment status for drivers will also need to be taken into
consideration.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 3:46 pm 
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There's also this in the Darlington paper about another taxation angle :-o

Darlington Council wrote:
Implications of the Financial Act 2022
From 4 April 2022, all taxi drivers applying for a licence or to renew a licence are legally
required to provide a refence code from HMRC before their application can be processed.
As most drivers have a self-employed status, this is to ensure they are registered with
HMRC to pay tax. Although it is difficult to assess the impact this has had at present, it is estimated that it has resulted in 5 fewer drivers per month applying for, or to renew their licence.

Not clear how they came up with that particular number, and to be fair, they do point out that it's 'difficult to assess'. And, of course, five per month doesn't seem much, but that's 60 less per year, with only 400 or so drivers in total :-o

On the other hand, the council seems to portay the likes of this as something new :roll:

Darlington Council wrote:
Although some drivers have retained their licence, they may not be actively
working within the trade, or driving taxis as a second occupation.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 8:06 pm 
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An article from Taxi-Point a few days back indicates the government are still on the VAT case.

https://www.taxi-point.co.uk/post/minic ... n-judgment

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 11:08 pm 
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Bolt's UK tax tribunal win could prove good news for Uber

A significant victory for Estonian ride-hailing and food delivery startup Bolt against Britain's tax authority last week could prove to be positive news for its rival Uber (UBER.N).

Bolt took on HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) over whether it was liable to pay a 20% tax charge on its gross income from customers or its margin.

The company had argued it should be allowed to use a tax scheme originally designed for tour operators or travel agents, called the Tour Operators Margin Scheme (TOMS).

This meant Bolt would only pay value added tax (VAT) on its margin, an argument which was rejected by HMRC.

But a London tax tribunal ruled on Friday that the services supplied by Bolt are "services of a kind ... commonly provided by tour operators or travel agents", meaning Bolt only has to pay VAT on its margin.

Bolt declined to comment on the ruling.

An HMRC spokesperson said: "We are disappointed with the ruling and are carefully considering the tribunal's decision.

"Our view remains that the Tour Operators Margin Scheme does not apply to mini-cab businesses."

The tribunal's ruling did not state the difference in Bolt's tax liability, though it is likely to be significant.

The decision also raises the prospect of Uber being victorious in its similar battle with HMRC, which Uber's financial results from August state is worth around 386 million pounds ($490 million).

The hearing of Uber's case is likely to take place in 2024. Uber declined to comment on last week's ruling in Bolt's case.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:27 am 
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As I've said said before (albeit in different words) what these court cases are doing is muddying the waters because they are looking at specific sets of circumstances not the overall picture what is needed is new legislation to clarify and cristalize the situation.

but I can't see thgat happening

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 7:12 pm 
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edders23 wrote:
As I've said said before (albeit in different words) what these court cases are doing is muddying the waters because they are looking at specific sets of circumstances not the overall picture what is needed is new legislation to clarify and cristalize the situation.

but I can't see thgat happening

The thing is we often need these messy lower court decisions for it to be forwarded onto the higher courts to settle the matter once and for all.

I know nothing about tax law, but I will be amazed if this Bolt victory remains after the higher courts have had their say.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2023 11:21 am 
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HMRC could be forced to pay Uber £500m after VAT legal defeat

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... al-defeat/

HM Revenue and Customs could be forced to repay almost £500m to Uber after a legal victory over the taxman by a rival minicab app.

Bolt, the Estonian start-up and Uber’s main competitor in London, has won a tax tribunal case against HMRC over the VAT it must pay on rides.

The decision could have implications for Uber, which is challenging the tax authority over the same issue in a separate case. Uber has paid hundreds of millions of pounds to the Exchequer in recent months while it disputes the charges, but is hoping to recoup the money.

The Bolt judgment could also shield passengers from rising fares, which were expected to come in if the tax was widely applied across the industry.

Apps like Uber and Bolt as well as other private hire operators have been forced to pay VAT in the UK since a court defeat in 2021, which radically changed how their businesses were legally defined.

However, HMRC and the companies have clashed on how much they must pay.

Uber said in November it had paid £493m to the authority in extra charges related to the dispute but hoped to recover it back on appeal. Its bill was raised from £386m earlier in the year after an “updated assessment” from HMRC.

Uber has argued that VAT should only be applied on the fees the company charges drivers, typically 25pc of a journey, while HMRC has said it should be applied to the full cost of a ride.

In the tax tribunal, Judge Greg Sinfield ruled that “mobile ride-hailing services” such as Bolt should be treated under the Tour Operators Margin Scheme, designed for holiday companies such as travel agents.

The ruling states that the company should only pay VAT on the company’s own fees, rather than the entire journey cost.

Jonathan Main, VAT partner at law firm MHA, said the Bolt decision had “major implications for taxi operators in London”.

“This is a significant win for all private hire businesses in London which will significantly reduce the financial pain across the sector,” he said, adding that minicab operators in the capital would be able to submit claims for overpaid VAT over the last 16 months.

While the decision strictly applies to operators in London, Uber has been charged VAT by HMRC across the country amid ongoing legal cases about how it applies outside the capital.

HMRC said it was assessing the implications of the Bolt decision. A spokesman said: “We are disappointed with the ruling and are carefully considering the tribunal’s decision.

“Our view remains that the Tour Operators Margin Scheme (TOMS) does not apply to minicab businesses.”

Uber did not comment on the Bolt ruling but warned that fares would rise for millions of people if it was forced to charge VAT on the full cost of a ride.

It said: “This could increase fares for millions of people across the country, which would have a significant impact on those who rely on this essential service.

“There is no VAT on trains, buses and coaches, and, as a key part of the UK’s transportation network, we believe that private hire trips should remain affordable for the people who rely on them.”

Uber fares have already risen sharply in recent years amid surging demand and a shortage of drivers.

Bolt did not comment on the tax tribunal victory. Mr Main said it was likely to be appealed to an upper tribunal.

Uber is expected to hear its similar case in the tax tribunal in the new year. The company has said it plans to “vigorously defend” its position. Tax experts have said the situation may ultimately take several years to be settled without intervention from the Treasury.

Jeremy Hunt, the Chancellor, has said he will look at the implications of the 2021 court ruling, which made private hire fares liable for VAT. The Treasury has said it will consult in the New Year.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2023 4:57 pm 
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HMRC wrote:
“Our view remains that the Tour Operators Margin Scheme (TOMS) does not apply to minicab businesses.”

Indeed, and you'd think the clue in the regulations would be the words 'Tour Operators' :idea:

But, as has been becoming increasingly obvious (and as no doubt those involved in taxation and the legal profession will know only all too well), this will all take years to pan out. And, in a way, it suits all concerned for it to be that way :?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:08 pm 
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Sun getting in on the issue.

CAB CURB Urgent warning over taxi tax as experts claim it could see FIVE MILLION fewer trips to restaurants & pubs a year

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/ ... wer-trips/

SLAPPING a Taxi Tax on minicabs could see FIVE MILLION fewer trips to restaurants, bars and pubs every year, industry experts warn.

Plans to force VAT on journeys risks a fresh blow to the already struggling hospitality trade, who rely on 15 million cab journeys a year.

But campaigners say new polling from YouGov shows that could slump by a third if fares are increased by 20 per cent.

The prospect of a the fare rise follows a High Court ruling which could see private hire companies having to charge VAT that would likely be passed

Chancellor Jeremy Hunt is under mounting pressure to block the move.

Ex-minister Jonathan Gullis told The Sun: “It makes no sense to burden people and businesses with a needless new tax, especially in an election year.

The Stoke-on-Trent MP added: “The impact on pubs, bars and restaurants – who are already struggling with inflationary pressures – and communities across the country will be very serious indeed.

“As a party, we are shooting ourselves in the foot by talking about lowering taxes at the Budget while raising them in other areas.

“The taxi tax is deeply un-Conservative and I urge the Prime Minister and Chancellor to intervene urgently to back businesses in cities like Stoke-on-Trent.”

And the British Beer and Pubs Association added: Pubs are already under strain and the Taxi Tax will increase travel costs to the point that many will choose not to go out at all – directly impacting establishments across the country.

Last night the Stop the Taxi Tax campaign, said: “Brits love their locals and our industry plays a key role in safely getting punters to and from home during a night out.

“The Taxi Tax will make this unaffordable for many, hurting an industry already struggling with millions fewer trips to the pub every year.”

They cited YouGov polling that showed an overwhelming majority of the British public oppose the Taxi Tax.

Almost 7 in 10 British adults polled by YouGov are against a VAT hike to 20 per cent with more than one in four adults “angry” at the move.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2024 2:53 am 
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Quote:
Almost 7 in 10 British adults polled by YouGov are against a VAT hike to 20 per cent with more than one in four adults “angry” at the move.

'Angry'? Seriously? According to one or two on here, no-one would even notice, surely? :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:20 pm 
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Daniel Zeichner the Labour MP for Cambridge asked these questions in the House recently.

Question for Department for Transport
Taxis: VAT
To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, whether he has had recent discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on (a) the VAT treatment of private hire vehicles and (b) the potential impact of changes in VAT rates for those vehicles on the viability of that sector.

Asked 29 January 2024
The Government remains committed to consult on the potential impacts of the Uber Britannia Ltd v Sefton MBC High Court ruling, and will publish a consultation in due course.

Answered 5 February 2024
By Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)


Question for Treasury
Taxis: VAT
To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether his Department plans to start a consultation on the VAT treatment of private hire vehicles.

Asked 29 January 2024
The Government understands that, following the Uber Britannia Ltd v Sefton MBC High Court ruling, the private hire vehicle sector are seeking clarity on the VAT implications of this ruling.

The Government remains committed to consulting on the impacts of this ruling, and will publish a consultation in due course.

Answered 5 February 2024
By Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 8:32 pm 
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Appeal being heard early July.

https://www.taxi-point.co.uk/post/appea ... se-in-july

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