Taxi Driver Online

Good work by the Glasgow Evening Times here

But they shouldn't portray the SPHA as some sort of disinterested group proffering independent advice - as a vested interest group who stand to profiteer by dint of this policy, their advice should be taken with a pinch of salt.

For example, the cynic in me thinks the reason they're highlighting this issue is because they fear the dam may be broken by stuff like this...


Trade body issue urgent warning to private hire drivers in Glasgow

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/248 ... s-glasgow/

NEARLY £130,000 of private hire licence application fees were paid to the council despite its overprovision limit having been met, prompting an urgent warning from a trade body.

Figures obtained by the Glasgow Times via a Freedom of Information (FOI) request show that 389 private hire car licence bids were rejected by Glasgow City Council’s (GCC) licensing authority between January 1 and November 1 this year.

It is understood that the limit of 3450 licensed private hire cars operating in the city had been reached as of May.

At that point, it is presumed unless proven otherwise that further private hire licenses should not be granted as there will be an overprovision of the service [Overprovision Policy].

Now, the Scottish Private Hire Association (SPHA) is urging drivers to “keep their money in their pockets” and not to submit any new applications.

Neil Scoffield, Glasgow convenor of SPHA, said: “We run a WhatsApp group and social media pages that clearly state ‘do not apply, it’s almost a certainty you will not be approved’.

“The council can only work within the remit of the Civic Government Act which does not allow them to say there are no plates available.

“Drivers can contact the SPHA and we can tell them. This isn’t a new situation, the numbers have been at the limit for easily eight months now and drivers are still applying.

“It’s a constantly changing number because plates get surrendered, drivers leave the trade and their plates are then returned to the council.

“So there are limited cases where plates become available but we’re talking one or two a month not 50 or 100.

“The council aren’t playing games they’re being as open as the law allows them to be. Under that act any money received for licensing purposes can only be used to provide licensing services.

“The council is not profiting from this. I think they [the drivers] think it’s a random amount being taken and it genuinely isn’t.

“They should not be applying and should keep their money in their pockets.”

Of the 389 rejections made so far this year, 327 were made between June and November – after the limit was met.

According to the latest data, 283 of those 327 rejections were due to GCC’s overprovision policy.

This meant that £128,845 was paid to the council by drivers in respect of applications refused over this policy.

Neil went on to add that GCC’s Overprovision Policy will be reviewed in June 2025.

He explained that the plate cap could either go up or down at this time but that does not mean licences will be guaranteed if the number goes up.

Neil added: ”Glasgow is currently the only local authority with this policy but it’s gaining traction in other cities.

“The policy will be reviewed next June and the number might increase or decrease because it is demand-led.

“Even if the number goes up it’s still a gamble because there will be thousands of applications going in.

“The review should have taken place last year but was extended because of the Low Emission Zone changes and the pandemic.

“We balloted out members again because we wondered if the feeling might have changed and again they overwhelmingly still supported the plate cap.

“We are thinking of the bigger picture. How many vehicles can be on the road where you can still make a living while working reasonable hours?

“If you flood the market it ultimately leads to drivers having to work longer and harder hours. A waiting list is also not possible as the Civic Government Act says all applications must be completed within nine months.

“The council hold them for as long as they can so it’s almost an unofficial waiting list but when it gets the end of life of the application the council has to action it.”

It is understood that in the New Year, GCC's licensing committee will be asked to approve a public consultation which could determine the appropriate number of plates in the city or see the cap scrapped altogether.

Councillor Alex Wilson, chair of the licensing committee, said: “The primary purpose of licensing is to serve the needs and protect the well-being, of the public.

"The availability of safe and licensed cabs at night is a key part of that. Both the city centre and the taxi and private hire trade have undergone significant change over recent years and it’s my view that it’s time for a conversation on whether the overprovision caps for taxis and private hire cars are still required.

"We need to consider if they still serve the needs of the public, the trade, our city centre economy and Glasgow’s transport network.

"My hope is the responses to the consultation will tell us that.”

For further information on private hire car licences in Glasgow contact the SPHA at glasgow@spha.scot.

So when I asked Dundee City Council about an HC plate in 1996 and they said there were none available then they were breaking the law?

And, for example, if you ask Fife Council about the availability of plates in my zone tomorrow, then they can't answer your question because to do so would be illegal?

What a load of $hite


Not sure whether to or at pi$h like that...


Turkeys vote to postpone Christmas indefinitely...who'd have expected that?


Say it's 20 per annum...then that's an annual turnover of about one half of one per cent

Which suggests to me that the plates are being retained for reasons of profiteering

But entirely as expected - that's what it's all about, and that's how the system works


Again, that's the way the system works - hardly a surprise. The technical term is rent-seeking


Utter nonsense - his constant reference to *drivers* this and *drivers* that is the giveaway - they're already in the trade, and the cap makes no difference in that regard.

And, I mean, if I got a Glasgow PH badge tomorrow, would I not be able to get a drive in one shape or form? Of course I'd get a car - but it would be someone else's, and I'd be paying well over the odds in inflated rentals

And the convener's statement at the end actually looks like the one issued when the proposal to remove the cap was made a couple of weeks ago. Which seemed to be due to pressure from the wider Glasgow business community. So it's basically one interest group in the trade v another interest group in the wider economy...and if the convener seems suddenly minded to think a policy barely in place for a few months is already fit for ditching then that maybe suggests different strings are being pulled behind the scenes...

Either that, or the council is just going through the motions of consulting on the PH cap, but with absolutely no intention of removing it

Well that's enough for now - assumed that at this time of year it would be slow news day, but I'll have to go and have a lie down

It's even made the frontpage



High-res version here:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GgC3bAtWAAA ... name=large

What a mess?

Incredibly sad that drivers have pi***d £130k up the wall.

And I'm not having the council can't say that numbers are restricted and the likelihood of your application being granted are not good.

FFS just be honest with drivers.

_________________
IDFIMH

I'd guess the SPHA chap is alluding to the natural justice/procedural-type stuff when it comes to licensing applications, such as not 'fettering discretion', 'legitimate expectations' and

So a council can't say you can't apply for a plate, but in practical terms a cap's a cap, putting it simply

So to a degree the SPHA is right in that maybe drivers are being confused by the likes of the stuff on the council's website, which I remember mentioning last year because of the kind of legalistic language used to basically say plates are capped, which may lead to confusion, particularly if English isn't the applicant's first language. I mean, have a read of the stuff via the two links in the post below - they're basically saying plates are capped, but check out all the convolution about applications and how they are processed, and about the overprovision assessments, and all that sort of stuff.

I recall handing in an application to Dundee City Council in 1996 (they haven't got back to me yet ), and was simply told by a member of staff that there were no plates available, and that my name would go on a waiting list.

(Another angle in the Glasgow article is that there's no waiting list - I think councils dumped that because of the 'legitimate expectation' stuff, but can't recall the details now. But waiting lists became a problem in terms of retaining the quota, which is probably why Glasgow Council are now saying they can't maintain a waiting list. But their spiel says that any available free plates will be dealt with in chronological order, which is a de facto waiting list, except to the extent that the article seems to be saying that any applications not granted within the nine month limit for assessing applications will be dumped - thus, in effect, they're off the de facto waiting list, which is maybe why they don't have a formal waiting list because of the legitimate expectation thing )

But, again, Dundee would accept applications, and they would go on the waiting list without needing an application fee or vehicle, insurance details etc, so to that extent that would have avoided what's going on in Glasgow. But, again, they probably want to get round the 'legitimate expectation' thing by avoiding an actual waiting list.

But all this legalism maybe underlines why drivers are effectively being deceived into applying - as is stated in the article, there are still a few plates being handed back, and maybe the drivers (or simple speculators) are applying in the hope they'll get one of the returned plates, but they're only one of hundreds thinking likewise, and it's effectively money down the drain.

But all of this has been obvious for decades, except to the extent that it's all been swept under the carpet by various councils, politicians like former SNP Government minister Kevin Stewart MSP and the Scottish Parliament more generally.

And decades after all this was swept under the carpet with regard to the HC trade, inegrity-lite justice secretary Michael Matheson decided to replicate it all in the PH sector, hence what's happening in Glasgow

So this is the kind of convoluted legalism Glasgow City Council tells PH plate applicants about the cap - basically it's saying there's a cap, but you can apply anyway, but...

https://glasgow.gov.uk/article/6343/Ove ... ar-Licence

This is the Dundee equivalent, which is maybe a tad clearer. But it's basically just a convoluted way of saying that there's a cap on HC licences, and this is how it's justified in legal terms:

https://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/licensing ... -hire-cars
(Click on section labelled 'Limit on taxi licences' )

That's maybe an instructive passage in Dundee Council's stuff at the end there, and how that kind of thing maybe impacts on Glasgow.

So I suspect that's related to the 'fettering discretion' kind of stuff - the council can't just say that someone can't apply for a licence, because they'd be 'fettering their discretion' with regard to considering all applications, or whatever the correct legalism is

But in pratical terms it's just a bit of legal mumbo jumbo, but may lead drivers into thinking they can apply and they have a chance of success, hence what's going on in Glasgow.

(A bit pointless banging on about all this, but just trying to rationalise what the SPHA are getting at with regard to when they say: “The council can only work within the remit of the Civic Government Act which does not allow them to say there are no plates available.")

At face value I think that's nonsense, but there's a grain of truth in it to the extent that the council must allow people to apply for plates. But in practical terms it's pretty pointless applying because, there's, um, a cap on plates )

There was a third relevant legal term I was thinking of a few hours ago, but when I came to write that down I couldn't remember it

But just looking at Glasgow Council's page regarding HC licences, and found another instructive phrase there - rebuttable presumption

Again, that's probably consistent with what SPHA is saying - the presumption that an application won't be granted because of the cap has to be rebuttable in law, because the council can't 'fetter its discretion' when considering any application.

Of course, that's just the legalism required to avoid the possibility of challenge in the courts - in reality, the council has fettered its discretion, and the the presumption is effectively irrebuttable.

But the legal pretence that it is rebuttable maybe explains why the council has happily accepted £130k in application fees that they know is money down the drain as far as the drivers are concerned

This is the relevant passage here, and the full link to the page is below:


https://citizen.glascc1-prd.gosshosted. ... ces-Policy

And presumably the number of HC/taxi plates is well below the 1,420 figure now, but there's still a cap.

But, as I recall it, there's a lower figure at which the significant unmet demand test would be met. And, assuming of course, that the council has current/timeous survey information in its possession.

And, of course, all this kind of nonsense is why lawyers could maybe pick holes in it all, which in turn is why the council tries to cover itself with all the pretence and legalisms etc

The last demand study in Glasgow was April 2023. IIRC a 3 year review interval is usual.

It recommended keeping the HC cap at 1420 but removing the lower limit of 1278. The last known count was 1408.

I'm not so clued up on PH, but the same study showed badge/vehicle numbers were almost 1:1. That doesn't smack of tycoons holding plates while drivers desperately seek vehicles.

Aside from that, I'm surprised at the number and cost of PH applications submitted and refused. Did they think some plates had been handed back and they might be lucky? Don't know. But remember Hanlon's Razor - Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence or stupidity

the question I would be asking is did it cost £130K to refuse the applications or are they profiting from the applications ?

_________________
lack of modern legislation is the iceberg sinking the titanic of the transport sector

It can't be viewed as anything other than profiteering.

Shame on that council.

_________________
IDFIMH

Don't quite get your logic with the numbers - there could be 4,000 PHDs without plates, but 4,000 PHC plateholders who don't drive their vehicle, and indeed may own fleets of dozens, or even hundreds

Of course, that's an extreme example, and highly unlikely to happen in practice.

But I can't see what the numbers ratio per se has to do with the baron/serf dynamic. (Or robber baron )

But if you're saying that a high number of drivers per vehicle is indicative of 'tycoons holding plates', then that's more of a long-term thing, and thus won't show in the figures immediately.

On the other hand, there are c.250 PHVs in Aberdeen. Suppose the council there suddenly said that to increase supply and appease Uber they would abolish the knowledge test etc, and instead limit vehicle numbers to protect the trade's income

So then Uber could easily recruit another 100 drivers, or 200 or even more - it would certainly be a significant figure.

But say in a couple of years they recruited 250 drivers. Assuming each PHC was singled before, it's now double-shifted

So in reality, although the surveys etc say PHC numbers haven't budged, in reality supply has doubled, thus earnings per driver have halved...

So the number of cars is meaningless, but the pretence is that nothing has changed in terms of supply, as per what the surveys tell us.

But, of course, the new 250 drivers are paying inflated rentals to get a shift...

Of course, even that is unlikely to happen in practice, and wouldn't happen overnight.

But, remember, PHD badges in Glasgow increased from 2,805 in 2008 to a peak of 5,475 a year or two before lockdown. So if there are currently less than 4,000 PHD badges in Glasgow, numbers are still way off peak, therefore...

And a driver/vehicle ratio of 2.5 is nothing remarkable in the trade. So if there are currently c. 3,500 PHC plates then in theory badge numbers could increase to nearly 9,000 and be accommodated in the current fleet

Of course, that's unlikely to happen in reality, but just to demonstrate that the current 1:1 PH ratio is meaningless in the long-term, except to the extent that the badge numbers could change fundamentally, while plate numbers remain static...

(Another thing worth mentioning maybe is that historically the Glasgow PH badge:plate ratio has been quite high at 1.4:1 or so. It only came down to 1:1 around lockdown. I'd guess there are two reasons, the first being obvious - badges not renewed during lockdown, and few new applications. On the other hand, the impending cap on plates would have distorted numbers, and they wouldn't have so readily been handed back because of lockdown. So badge numbers fell to a much greater degree than plates because of the plate cap distortion, hence the ratio came closer to 1:1 )

Equally, the reverse could be true - recall that HC badge numbers in Glasgow were around 3,000 back in 2008, but even before lockdown were pushing down towards 2,000, and the 2022 number is 1,743

Meanwhile, during the whole of that period, the number of HC plates had hardly budged, averaging around the 1,420 mark.

Hmm… that’s quite a lot of if/but/maybe hypotheticals.

More simply, fleet owners will want more badges than plates; that keeps their rentals going. At 1:1, there’s no queue of replacements if drivers quit, even less scope to double shift. Any unused PHC is a cost to the owner.

Low badge numbers must mean low earnings.

Forby that, badge numbers may now be above the 2023 count anyway – the public register is a bit clunky to read.