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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:48 pm 
Tom Thumb wrote:
Well Mr Cabby welcome.

Q. So the big circuits have developed this special needs markets have they?

A. Yes, they have.

Q. Ask a council and they will tell you they are desperate for an alternative supplier to overcome the 'surcharges' of the big circuits.

A. All Councils want something for nothing, especially when they are bound by a CCT and the financial pressures being brought to bear by Central Govt. Many of the journeys for the Special Needs are done below meter fare. When LPH comes to terms with what Licensing really means their prices will inevitably go up and their competitive edge largely diminished. They are already complaining bitterly about how difficult it is to recruit drivers. Of course they are - now that the drivers are being licensed it appears quite a few do not want to come out of the black economy and become legit, even though they have previously registered. This is currently giving the PCO serious problems that will soon come to light I'm sure.

"Private Hire should be allowed to meet 'customer demand' and if that includes MPV's or wheelchair accessible vehicles then so be it."

A. That's your opinion, but if they want to do taxi work why don't they apply for a taxi licence? You know the answer to that already don't you? Don't they just want cheap labour to drive these vehicles to enhance the returns to the minicab office operator?

"The hackney trade is London is responsible for the current state of London Private Hire industry, it was your lobbying that stopped it being licenced and legitimised with the rest of the country. 25 years later the right decision has been made, what you were frightened of then is now going to happen."

A. In that case they should be eternally grateful to us. The London taxi trade has come to terms with the need for PH in London and has publicly stated that they welcome PH in order to give the customer the freedom of choice. I agree with this. Previously the London cab trade had perhaps the same view as LTI - Us or nothing, but times have changed. There should be a Licensed Private Hire system and a Taxi system but they should be two separate industries. This doesn't mean that there should be a taxi system operating as such, and a LPH system trying its damnedest to be a taxi business, whilst pretending to be a minicab business.

"The Knowledge. Isn't it great. A ridiculously high barrier to the trade. It is unnecessary for pre booked jobs."

A. You might think so - but what happens when the details of the journey may change en route? The minicab driver has got himself a problem - even when he/she may have sat-nav. Do you have a problem with someone being properly qualified for their job? There is no substitute for experience and all taxi drivers have to have that experience BEFORE they are even allowed to sit behind the wheel of a cab. Taxi drivers are continually being asked by minicab drivers (and couriers) in the traffic, "How do I get to 'so & so?" In my view all persons who drive the public for hire in London should have to do the KOL. The public deserve no less and should always have a person trained to an established and world-wide acclaimed standard, driving them. This would give minicab drivers true status and they will have earned it and could not be exploited by the operators who, in many cases want to pay peanuts. There is no reason, given the above, why minicab drivers and taxi drivers should not enjoy equal status. Many, if not most of those currently doing the Knowledge are minicab drivers. Please note it is not the other way round. RTL is the exception but some of the original drivers of the cars are reportedly already looking to change back. The novelty of the lovely Merc and a 'whistle' wearing a bit thin?

"Once the PH trade settles down in London and some large, quality outfits emerge and start to eat into the corporate market the big circuits are going to find themselves under huge pressure to change."

A. That may be so - but we'll have to wait and see, won't we? Corporate clients moan when they get drivers who don't know where they are going and don't want to have to tell the driver where to go (thereby teaching him his job) and then paying for the privilege.

"Cox has done that, Rice wants to but is held back by his members (though I hear rumours they have 'partnerships' with PH outfits)."

Perhaps he has, but we'll see just how much this venture into the PH world by a London circuit affects their balance sheet and their annual accounts. It was claimed that by taking on Executive cars this was the way to go and that it would save the accounts from going elsewhere and bring more TAXI work to the radio circuit and more work to the taxi drivers themselves. We will just have to wait and see their annual accounts before we believe that claim, won't we? RTL have already announced in a drivers' forum that the Executive cars they've put on (22 of them) will not make a profit. Hardly a promising start but was the real agenda to have Executive cars or was it just a step in the transition to minicabs, (a one-stop shop policy?) hoping that a fait accompli was achieved before the drivers (shareholders) woke up to what was really going on? Who knows?

"Interesting times ahead no doubt."


At least you're dead right about that one!

Cruisin' Cabby


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:59 pm 
Dusty Bin wrote:
Yes, Mr Cruisin' Cabby, 'let's not get silly about this'.


I was certainly not trying to 'impugn your integrity' Mr Cruisin' Cabby, and for my contribution to any misunderstanding I most humbly apologise.

As for asking you outright if you were a London cab driver, again the question was implied in my original comment. Indeed, I thought that to have asked you outright might have sounded more like I was questioning your integrity, thus the attempt at the more diplomatic approach, which turned out to be anything but.

Dusty :D


Dear Dusty,

I accept what you are saying without reservation - it just seemed to have come out wrong and made me react the way I did. I'm sorry to you if I went over the top with my response.

I hope things will continue as normal and the matter is now resolved amicably.

As I said in my earlier posting, I think these lists are great and it is everyone's right to comment on what is put on here, provided they are not personally offensive. We should disagree with the argument by all means, but try not to attack the individual, even though we all mistakes on this point sometimes. :D

I'm sorry if I came over too strong.

Regards,

Cruisin' Cabby


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 10:20 pm 
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Anonymous wrote:
[As I said in my earlier posting, I think these lists are great and it is everyone's right to comment on what is put on here, provided they are not personally offensive. We should disagree with the argument by all means, but try not to attack the individual, even though we all mistakes on this point sometimes. :D

I'm sorry if I came over too strong.

Regards,

Cruisin' Cabby


When TDO was being set up, a number of experienced :wink: posters mentioned that at times it would get heated, and alas sometimes personal. It was also mentioned that my 'Rose Tinted' glasses would get very steamed up at times.

Thankfully, even when it has been heated, it has never got personal. Or if it has, the posts didn't last. :roll:


Alex


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 Post subject: Re: TfL U-turn?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:16 am 
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Anonymous wrote:
Nonesense utter balderdash

which law give right of counciils to insist on tests for private hire drivers?
which law gives the right of councils to put stickers on them,?
which law allows councils to fix private hire fares?

there are regulations which forbid restriction by age of vehicles!
there are laws that forbid roof signs.

I could go on and on

suffice to say councils are in the thick of this conspiracy to break laws


I think that if the law was adequate then these things simply wouldn't happen so readily.

But it's inadequate, hence the overlap between the two trades.

Dusty


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:25 am 
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Anonymous wrote:
I hope things will continue as normal and the matter is now resolved amicably.



Absolutely.

Swords are crossed on a regular basis, often due to misunderstandings, often not.

Me and Wharfy fall out every few days, but we love each other really!

Dusty :D


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 Post subject: Re: TfL U-turn?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 4:00 am 
Dusty Bin wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Nonesense utter balderdash

which law give right of counciils to insist on tests for private hire drivers?
which law gives the right of councils to put stickers on them,?
which law allows councils to fix private hire fares?

there are regulations which forbid restriction by age of vehicles!
there are laws that forbid roof signs.

I could go on and on

suffice to say councils are in the thick of this conspiracy to break laws


I think that if the law was adequate then these things simply wouldn't happen so readily.

But it's inadequate, hence the overlap between the two trades.

Dusty



with all due respect, you are so blind you keep missing the point, which is the law is there and ruddy councils refuse to ruddywell follow it!

there is no overlap!

Wharfie


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 Post subject: Re: TfL U-turn?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:19 pm 
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Anonymous wrote:
with all due respect, you are so blind you keep missing the point, which is the law is there and ruddy councils refuse to ruddywell follow it!

there is no overlap!

Wharfie


I'm not over-familiar with the law but, for example, is there any law that forbids PH cars having meters? If not is there anything to stop them charging the same fares as HC? Is there anything to stop a mixed firm calling itself "Premier Taxis", and when a punter phones that firm they can send either a PH or HC??

Dusty


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 Post subject: Re: TfL U-turn?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:34 pm 
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Dusty Bin wrote:
I'm not over-familiar with the law but, for example, is there any law that forbids PH cars having meters? If not is there anything to stop them charging the same fares as HC? Is there anything to stop a mixed firm calling itself "Premier Taxis", and when a punter phones that firm they can send either a PH or HC??

Dusty


Well I am familiar, and there is no law stopping PHs having meters and charging the same as the HC rate. There is no law stopping a mixed fleet calling themselves taxi this, and taxi that.

As someone recently mentioned on another forum, Radio Taxis in London, have a fleet of PH vehicles. :roll:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 7:15 pm 
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Location: Essex, England
Well, actually there are some Laws governing the use of the word Taxi in an office advert or any material "suggesting licensed hackney carriages are used, by use of the word Cab, Taxi or similar in advertising or office signs etc" They exist in Merseyside, as Bye Laws. I have heard of similar elsewhere. Wonder how they affect Richard's TaxiBus at Manchester Airport?

_________________
There is Significant Unmet Demand for my Opinion.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 7:29 pm 
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I think Andy7, that is the problem with the rules and conditions we all have to adhere too i.e. there are 400 odd different set of them.

I think a rule of thumb (sorry Tom), is that if you have HCs in your mixed fleet, you can call yourself something with taxi in.

However rules of thumb, mean jack poo in front of a court.

I look forward to this, and I suspect many other rules, being challenged by the London PH trade, when fully licensed. :wink:


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 Post subject: TfL U-turn?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 8:38 pm 
Tom Thumb wrote:
Real world calling London Cabby.

'The taxi trade meet the needs of the special needs in London, so why involve the PH Trade?

Cooey Cooey.COMPETITION

Trains take people to Heathrow from London, but you still want to do it! :evil:


Well, well, what a perceptive little person you are Tom Thumb. And you believe in competition too? Competition is good and the taxi trade welcome it, from wherever it comes, though you may never wish to accept this. At present around 3,000 taxi journeys are made from Heathrow every day. The introduction of the rail service has not had too much impact on this. However, the work from Paddington Station where the HEX comes in, has increased I suspect, by a factor of 10 and the cab trade has benefited considerably from this. Many of the people who would have caught a bus now use taxis to their on-going destinations. Contrary to common belief, not all taxi drivers like working from Heathrow and never visit the place unless taken there by a passenger who has hired them. Many of them just turn round and come straight back to town.

In respect of the COMPETITION point you raise (cooey, cooey!), this has to be fair, and a level playing field must prevail. When LPH has to meet with all the requirements of the new licensing system, (that many of them cried out for) with drivers, vehicles and the offices ALL licensed, we will just have to wait and see how competitive they really are.

Until now the private hire trade in London has in so many cases been no more than a racket, and has, as the leader writer of this list has pointed out, even if you may not have read it or agreed with it, that it has been largely subsidised by the benefits system, and illegal immigrants. (Fact!)

When that is no longer there to act as a 'prop' in the negotiation process - that is when the 'Real world' as you call it, will kick in. Their competitiveness if that is what you may wish to call it is too often based on fraudulent practices, and surely you don't support that do you? The licensing system will, hopefully, bring that to an end. The Real world is with the licensing system and the cries coming from some in the PH industry makes them sound like stuck pigs. They wanted licensing for their credibility but seemingly do not wish to adhere to it as they can no longer do as they pleased. We in the taxi trade have been licensed continuously since 1654 and have learnt to live with it. The PH have got to learn to live with it too, but they know it is going to diminish their competitive edge. Shame.

Bring on the competition! (The Real world competition that is).

I noticed you didn't respond to many of the other points raised in my reply.

I learnt a long time ago that it is easier to remain silent and be thought a fool - than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Cooey - cooey? Is that pigeon or chicken speak? Too much KFC isn't good for you, I'm told.

Cruisin' Cabby


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 12:58 pm 
Well responded Mr Cabby.Pleasure to discuss the topic with a London Cabby who argues his points and not simply throws insults.

I fully agree with the level playing field comments. My views are based on what I expect the Private Hire industry in London will become over the next three or four years.

You views are fascinating about Heathrow Express. I also believed it would have a negative effect on my business, but it hasn't.

Clearly I see the PH industry developing into large fleets of good quality cars and professional drivers. These companies will focus purely on the corporate market, how the cash in hand/pocket industry develops in the suburbs will be another matter.


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 Post subject: TfL U-turn?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 3:40 pm 
Tom Thumb wrote:
Well responded Mr Cabby.Pleasure to discuss the topic with a London Cabby who argues his points and not simply throws insults.

I fully agree with the level playing field comments. My views are based on what I expect the Private Hire industry in London will become over the next three or four years.

Clearly I see the PH industry developing into large fleets of good quality cars and professional drivers. These companies will focus purely on the corporate market, how the cash in hand/pocket industry develops in the suburbs will be another matter.


The PH trade, in my view, if it wants to succeed, have got to join with the licensed taxi trade in eliminating the touts. The touting is what the LPH largely originates from and has to shed itself of this millstone around its neck if they want to be seen as truly legitimate. Their presence is a constant reminder of what you once were often seen as - so the question is, how to get rid of it?

There are still too many minicab 'cowboys' (drivers) out there, although seeking legitimacy, who want to do work out of the gaze of the office and take the full amount from the passenger with no deductions by the boss. Sorely tempting for some out on the street, but unless their licence and their reputation is worth protecting they will never really shake off this 'back-pocket' practice, will they? If they were adequately paid the likelihood of this happening would be much less and the safety of the public would increase. (Insurance-wise).

The recruitment of new drivers, or should I say lack of it, is going to have an impact and it will be the minicab offices who will have to face the Real world. With driver licensing a pre-requisite now, buiding a professional team of drivers can only come about by having suitable rewards and long-serving drivers and not the cheap labour that has been their salvation for too long.

Indeed, times ARE changing. Unless the high turnover of minicab drivers is reversed little progress on the lines you envisage is likely to take place on any large scale. High standards is surely the best way forward, but it comes at a price. Some are indicating that they don't want to pay this price and are moaning already. They wanted a licensing system - well, they got it! No raising of standards, less chance of legitimised progress.

The taxi trade has its problems too, to a certain extent. Taxi drivers are highly trained and good at what they do. Their world-wide reputation is not based on urban myth. They are a fiercely independent group of individuals who express their individuality in many different ways, including dress code. Some are not aware what an impression they make on corporate clients in this regard, if they are not dressed as well as perhaps they ought, particularly radio circuit drivers. It's a touchy subject, but in my view it is something we as a trade should consider for our collective good and I don't mean the introduction of uniforms.

Even the worst touts in the street are often better dressed than some taxi drivers; but appearance, when it comes to safety has little meaning. We are highly trusted even if some drivers go to work in a string vest and shorts in the summer, and look like they have just come off the beach. Strange, but true.

Minicab drivers can be 'suited and booted' but, according to the statistics from TfL, are still responsible for one rape and 3 sexual assaults every week, on average. It seems there is no rhyme or reason to the difference.

I see no reason why there shouldn't be a legitimate private hire industry but it shouldn't try to encroach into traditional taxi work if it is to abide by the regulations recently laid down. If they persist in 'eating away' at the taxi trade then why did they want so-called legitimacy, when what they were really seeking was to be taxi drivers via the back door.

That, in my opinion, will never be allowed to happen regardless of how much lobbying is undertaken. The LPH trade, from much of what they have done, are very jealous of us and want to be where we are, but seemingly by stealth. They don't have to be jealous - they only have to apply for a taxi licence and/or a taxi proprietor's licence and join us. The front door is open - they don't have to try and get in surreptitiously via the back door.

Cruisin' Cabby


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:09 pm 
just as an aside cruisin,

licensing does not eliminate touting, it goes on here 24 years after licensing was introduced, its a myth perpetuated by some.

in fact they have in enshrined in case law, too much touting=not enough cabs!

Wharfie


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 Post subject: TfL U-turn?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 8:47 pm 
Wharfie wrote:
just as an aside cruisin,

licensing does not eliminate touting, it goes on here 24 years after licensing was introduced, its a myth perpetuated by some.

in fact they have in enshrined in case law, too much touting=not enough cabs!

Wharfie


I think that your first sentence goes without saying. But, what would be your solution to this problem be, bearing in mind the huge, huge scale that it is going on in London? It has to be a 'catch 22' situation to prove the point.

1. Should the number of taxi driver licenses that are issued be dramatically increased to remove the need for touts? (How would you know when to stop the increases - when no more touts are to be seen and we've got 3,000 more cabs than we need?)

2. Rigidly enforce the regulations of the new LPH Vehicles (London) Act 1998 and show just what a shortfall of licensed cabs actually exists? (This is a monumental task for which there seems never to be enough resources to cover this epedemic. The level of illegal activity, if pursued vigourously by police and TOCU, could fill the Courts with nothing else for months until every last one of these kerb-crawling scavengers is cleared from the streets.)

3. Do nothing?

4. Carry out (to a degree within limited resources) both 1 and 2?

Your statement 'too much touting = not enough cabs' is somewhat glib in my view, even if you claim it is case law, and over-simplifies the problem. If removing the cars from the touts and crushing them became a penalty, then perhaps that might bring a more dramatic and appropriate response. There would be a period, if your suggestion is to hold water, where there may be a shortfall in the number of cabs available. But let's get to that situation first shall we?

It could well be that taxis will be just that bit busier when no touts can be touted. Perhaps we should make it an offence to solicit the services of a tout and make it an arrestable offence to do so. That way both parties could be nicked as one could be seen as the other 'aiding and abetting' a crime? Well, ..... wouldn't that be a revelation?

However, your view does not take into consideration those persons who want to 'grab a tout' because they think (and only think) that they have got a cheap ride home and think they are some great negotiator when they knock down the minicab driver's original price. Perhaps they really believe they are in a third world country sometimes and that bartering is the name of the game.

They never seem to barter with the doorman or the barman at the nightclub they've just paid to enter and/or when buying drinks at the bar. They reserve their 'negotiating' skills and the big 'I am' for the minicab driver hanging around outside who often doesn't even know where these people are going and gives the first price that comes into his head - and then the bartering begins in earnest. What a way to run a transport system?

The club doorman and the barman would just tell these type of guys to go F*** themselves, I'm sure. Next time you see someone buying a train ticket, or a coach ticket, and they try bartering for it with the guy behind the counter and see how far they will be tolerated. Quite!

The reality, in many cases, is that even the price the punter 'negotiated' with the tout is above the meter fare of a licensed taxi. From your district it must be difficult for you to know what actually transpires here in the Capital's streets at night, and to the huge extent that it happens? I face it every night of my working life and the touts are there in huge numbers, even when there are dozens of empty cabs about - it is just not about the shortage of cabs and anyone who believes it is, come to London and I'll show them the reality - even a High Court Judge... It simply isn't that simple.

Cruisin' Cabby


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