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trotskys twin
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:38 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
jimbo wrote:

Won't be good enough for TT & CC, I'm guessing.


You guess right, employing an American is a questionable decision;

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/sicko/

The facts behind Michael Moore’s film SiCKO.

I had a chance over the fourth of July holiday to watch Michael Moore’s new film Sicko. To make a long story short, the film was wonderful. It was entertaining enough to grab your attention, and yet informative enough to leave you in a better position to judge our health care system. To be honest, I left the theater with a somber burning in my stomach, hoping that somehow we as Americans would learn to understand that having access to basic health care is a human right, and not a commodity for those who can afford it.

This post is not about this aspect of the film however, but rather it is focused on the data used in the film. Those on the right side of the political spectrum who disapprove of this film (and despise Michael Moore) are claming that Moore is spreading propaganda and lies, attempting to deceive the American public to bring on some socialist takeover. This is a stance taken by the willfully ignorant, given their inability to actually check the facts themselves.

I have organized much of the data used in the film below. The data is from the World Health Organization, and is the most recent data available. I have also included some data that Moore did not use, to avoid the “cherry picking” charge.

Canada

* Life expectancy at birth (years) males ?
78.0 (2005)
* Life expectancy at birth (years) females ?
83.0 (2005)
* Probability of dying (per 1 000 population) between 15 and 60 years (adult mortality rate) males ?
90 (2005)
* Probability of dying (per 1 000 population) between 15 and 60 years (adult mortality rate) females ?
56 (2005)
* Infant mortality rate (per 1 000 live births) ?
5.0 (2005)
* Physicians (density per 1 000 population) ?
2.14 (2003)
* Dentists (density per 1 000 population) ?
0.59 (2003)
* Pharmacists (density per 1 000 population) ?
0.67 (2003)
* Per capita total expenditure on health at average exchange rate (US$) ?
3037.6 (2004)
* Per capita government expenditure on health at average exchange rate (US$) ?
2120.9 (2004)
* Hospital beds (per 10 000 population)
36.0 (2003)

Cuba

* Life expectancy at birth (years) males ?
75.0 (2005)
* Life expectancy at birth (years) females ?
79.0 (2005)
* Probability of dying (per 1 000 population) between 15 and 60 years (adult mortality rate) males ?
128 (2005)
* Probability of dying (per 1 000 population) between 15 and 60 years (adult mortality rate) females ?
83 (2005)
* Infant mortality rate (per 1 000 live births) ?
5.0 (2005)
* Physicians (density per 1 000 population) ?
5.91 (2002)
* Dentists (density per 1 000 population) ?
0.87 (2002)
* Per capita total expenditure on health at average exchange rate (US$) ?
229.8 (2004)
* Per capita government expenditure on health at average exchange rate (US$) ?
201.8 (2004)
* Hospital beds (per 10 000 population)
49.0 (2005)

France

* Life expectancy at birth (years) males ?
77.0 (2005)
* Life expectancy at birth (years) females ?
84.0 (2005)
* Probability of dying (per 1 000 population) between 15 and 60 years (adult mortality rate) males ?
128 (2005)
* Probability of dying (per 1 000 population) between 15 and 60 years (adult mortality rate) females ?
58 (2005)
* Infant mortality rate (per 1 000 live births) ?
4.0 (2005)
* Physicians (density per 1 000 population) ?
3.37 (2004)
* Dentists (density per 1 000 population) ?
0.68 (2004)
* Pharmacists (density per 1 000 population) ?
1.06 (2003)
* Per capita total expenditure on health at average exchange rate (US$) ?
3464.0 (2004)
* Per capita government expenditure on health at average exchange rate (US$) ?
2714.6 (2004)
* Hospital beds (per 10 000 population)
75.0 (2004)

United States of America

* Life expectancy at birth (years) males ?
75.0 (2005)
* Life expectancy at birth (years) females ?
80.0 (2005)
* Probability of dying (per 1 000 population) between 15 and 60 years (adult mortality rate) males ?
137 (2005)
* Probability of dying (per 1 000 population) between 15 and 60 years (adult mortality rate) females ?
81 (2005)
* Infant mortality rate (per 1 000 live births) ?
7.0 (2005)
* Physicians (density per 1 000 population) ?
2.56 (2000)
* Dentists (density per 1 000 population) ?
1.63 (2000)
* Pharmacists (density per 1 000 population) ?
0.88 (2000)
* Per capita total expenditure on health at average exchange rate (US$) ?
6096.2 (2004)
* Per capita government expenditure on health at average exchange rate (US$) ?
2724.7 (2004)
* Hospital beds (per 10 000 population)
33.0 (2003)

Those who have seen the film will notice that all of the data that Moore use in his film is accurate. Americans do live shorter lives than their Canadian and French counterparts, and only slighter longer lives than the Cuban people. Infant mortality rates are in fact higher in the United States than in Cuba, France, and Canada; as stated in Moore’s film. This data also points out a fact that Moore does not: In the United States, you are more likely do die between the ages of 15-60 than the Cuban, French, or Canadians.

Last but not least, we spend twenty-six times the money per capita that they spend in Cuba for health care, and twice the amount they pay in France and Canada. The part of this data that affects most Americans is the out of pocket expense. According to the data, every individual in the United States spends on average over $3,000.00 out of pocket for their health care. Those in Cuba, Canada, and France pay nothing, because small user fees only paid by those who can afford it ($10.00 for a prescription for example) make up the small amount needed between the governmentally provided resources and the spending needed per capita.

Another interesting aspect of this data is the amount that the American government actually spends per capita on healthcare. Our federal government actually spends more per capita on health care than the Canadians and French. This means that we actually spend more of our tax dollars on health care, and yet due to corporate interests we are still forced to come up with another $3,300.00 out of pocket each year, while our French and Canadian counterparts pay nothing except for a few small user fees.

What may I ask are we paying for? The answer it seems is that we are paying to increase corporate profits so that the elite in our society can live privileged lives, and continue to buy our government out from under us.

We are paying thousands of dollars each year for health care, and yet we live shorter lives, lose more children upon birth, and are more likely to die before the age of 65. This should outrage every American whether you are a Democrat, an Independent, or a Republican. Our health care is already subsidized to the same levels as the Canadians and French, the only difference is that the subsidies our government provides end up in the pockets of executives in the American system rather than providing quality health care for everyone in our society.

I understand that Republicans hate Michael Moore, something that I completely understand given his views. I would hate him too if I resided on the right side of the political spectrum. But the argument he makes is based on factual evidence, and the topic he chooses is of concern to all of us. I believe that every American will be able to watch Sicko and take something very important away from it despite the large variety of views in this country. To my Democratic friends: go watch and enjoy this film. To my Republican friends: just tell yourself Michael Moore is not responsible for this film and go with an open mind (and close your eyes when he appears on screen).

http://www.politicsisapplesauce.org/?p=34


well done Capt an excellent warning as to the plans OF Dave the murderer BUT the question is

HOW ARE WE GOING TO STOP THESE SCUM .....................................GENERAL STRIKE ???????????????????????????????/ =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

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toots
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:53 pm 
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TT wrote:
well done Capt an excellent warning as to the plans OF Dave the murderer BUT the question is

HOW ARE WE GOING TO STOP THESE SCUM .....................................GENERAL STRIKE ???????????????????????????????/ =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


He doesn't go to feckin work anyway, nobody would notice :lol: :lol: :lol:

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captain cab
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:55 pm 
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toots wrote:


He doesn't go to feckin work anyway, nobody would notice :lol: :lol: :lol:


I may be on strike for all you know :shock:

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toots
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:56 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
toots wrote:


He doesn't go to feckin work anyway, nobody would notice :lol: :lol: :lol:


I may be on strike for all you know :shock:


Ya nay gonna win :lol: You ain't got owt they want :wink:

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captain cab
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:00 pm 
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toots wrote:

Ya nay gonna win :lol: You ain't got owt they want :wink:



yeah - they already have windbags

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toots
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:03 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
toots wrote:

Ya nay gonna win :lol: You ain't got owt they want :wink:



yeah - they already have windbags


:lol: :lol: :lol:

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trotskys twin
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:14 pm 
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toots wrote:
captain cab wrote:
toots wrote:

Ya nay gonna win :lol: You ain't got owt they want :wink:



yeah - they already have windbags


:lol: :lol: :lol:


And in the mean time another A&E shuts =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

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captain cab
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:15 pm 
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trotskys twin wrote:

And in the mean time another A&E shuts =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>



But not through lack of custom :wink:

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toots
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:17 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
trotskys twin wrote:

And in the mean time another A&E shuts =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>



But not through lack of custom :wink:


Ahh, but when you're not paying custom the government don't want you :shock:

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trotskys twin
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:21 pm 
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toots wrote:
captain cab wrote:
trotskys twin wrote:

And in the mean time another A&E shuts =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>



But not through lack of custom :wink:


Ahh, but when you're not paying custom the government don't want you :shock:


I take it you mean CUSTOMER :?:

So how you gonna stop it sister :badgrin: :badgrin:

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toots
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:33 pm 
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TT wrote:
take it you mean CUSTOMER :?:

So how you gonna stop it sister


I guess I'll have to find a union with health insurance :lol: That aside I've more than contributed, I spent my childhood in the bloody hospital ffs.

Clearly something needs to be done and quickly, one voice and unionisation is a good thing and so are demos but I'm not as radical as yourself and feel a general strike should be the last straw :-|

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trotskys twin
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:44 pm 
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toots wrote:
TT wrote:
take it you mean CUSTOMER :?:

So how you gonna stop it sister


I guess I'll have to find a union with health insurance :lol: That aside I've more than contributed, I spent my childhood in the bloody hospital ffs.

Clearly something needs to be done and quickly, one voice and unionisation is a good thing and so are demos but I'm not as radical as yourself and feel a general strike should be the last straw :-|


eff me a convert =D> =D> =D> well nearly so when do we play the last straw before are after the destruction of the NHS............. complicated. :?: :?:

Health insurance for Private medicine eff orf :evil: :evil: :evil: but sick pay whilst your unwell no prob via the GMB sister even if yer self employed =D> =D> good aint they :D :D

self employed sick pay.....................www.gmbprotect.com

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toots
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:07 pm 
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TT wrote:
so when do we play the last straw before are after the destruction of the NHS............. complicated.


There's probably a lot to be said for after it's destroyed, start from scratch, get it right etc... etc..... but I don't think that's what you meant :wink:

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trotskys twin
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:15 pm 
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toots wrote:
TT wrote:
so when do we play the last straw before are after the destruction of the NHS............. complicated.


There's probably a lot to be said for after it's destroyed, start from scratch, get it right etc... etc..... but I don't think that's what you meant :wink:


And how many DIE in the meantime.like how many would you find acceptable and would it include YOU :?: :?:

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toots
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:23 pm 
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trotskys twin wrote:
toots wrote:
TT wrote:
so when do we play the last straw before are after the destruction of the NHS............. complicated.


There's probably a lot to be said for after it's destroyed, start from scratch, get it right etc... etc..... but I don't think that's what you meant :wink:


And how many DIE in the meantime.like how many would you find acceptable and would it include YOU :?: :?:


I never find unnecessary death acceptable regardless of how many, unfortunately sometimes they are a necessary evil to wake a nation up......... would that include my own? I'm not special so why should I be spared at somebody elses expense, I'd much rather it didn't come to any of this tho

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