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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:23 pm 
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I dont remember any of these extremist telling us to convert to islam ? I thought it was more stop killing our people,or get out of our countrys.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:27 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
Skull wrote:
Captain Cab writes:

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Why would I apologise for the death of Lee Rigby - I didn't murder him. you are then saying I am more or less supporting the terrorists - could you show me the post where I wrote any support please?


The whole tone of your posts is one of making concessions for extremism in that their actions can be justified in some way because of British foreign policy. It's just one big apology.

Now I don’t know if you are being deliberately obtuse but harping on about foreign policy does nothing to confront the real issue, of Islam being an intrinsically evil religion which is the basic premise to my posts. And you just skipped right over Winston Churchill’s quote which summed up everything I believe quite nicely.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities – but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.

– Sir Winston Churchill
British Conservative politician and statesman of the United Kingdom

And once again: the simple truth is CC, and I have said this many times before, you cannot debate with someone of religious faith because they do not require a shred of evidence for what they believe, and that's what makes the fanatics of these faiths so dangerous. Everything they do is revealed to them by God, through some Cleric or their reading and interpretation of some Bronze Age book.


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What I am saying is that the death of 40 people in Afghanistan, Iraq or Pakistan will not get the media coverage that a single horrible, brutal murder will on the streets of London.


I would agree with you wholeheartedly but fortunately, we don’t live in Afghanistan, Iraq or Pakistan. And I think it is true to say that life is a lot cheaper in these countries and it probably has more to do with poor health care, sanitation, working conditions and diet rather than the barrel of a gun. Oh and It was bad before we got there so we can't accept all the blame.

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What I am saying is that you appear to accept the brutal murder by the IRA of soldiers is more acceptable than the death of soldiers at the hands of a Muslim. - I don't accept either - both are equally horrific.


I am saying nothing of the sort and the only reason you seem to coming up with this nonsense is to avoid the basic premise of my post which is, once again, that Islam is an intrinsically evil religion.

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What I am saying is that British foreign policy has fuelled the hate.


I know exactly what you are saying and I agree with that part of your argument and I have already said, repeatedly, we should pull our troops out and put Tony Blair on trial for War Crimes.

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You don't appear to offer any solution other than something that would have been dreamed up by Nazis - I am saying stop interfering in the affairs of the Middle East - don't send arms - don't support dictators.


Showing allegiance to your country by swearing an oath to the flag before that of your faith or facing deportation as a consequence for anyone holding extremist's views, is not a **** solution to this problem by any stretch of the imagination. It is simply a means by which we can weed the extremists out.


I would skip over the Winston Churchill quote - because he was responsible for the murder of thousands of Irish folk, was responsible for the Dardanelles Campaign during WW1 and many other crimes.

Where are you going to deport a British born subject to?


Where do you get this sh*e. Whatever Churchill did it doesn't make his observations about Islam any less correct?

Oh and if your British born subject sees himself a Muslim first, then that's fine with me, so let his brothers take care of him in a Muslim country of his choice. I am sure they will welcome him and his extremist views with open arms. :-|

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:36 pm 
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blackpool wrote:
I dont remember any of these extremist telling us to convert to islam ? I thought it was more stop killing our people,or get out of our countrys.


I never said they did and once again. My response to CC's question has been taken out of context.

In the eyes of the extremist, it's either convert to Islam or face death. Oh and they will kill their own who maybe take a softer view, like living alongside people of other faiths, is acceptable.

That's what the Koran preaches in its most extreme interpretation. I would look up the suras but I can't be ar*ed. You'll just have to take my word for it. :-|

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:42 pm 
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Gusmac writes:

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Interesting choice of words. Final solution being more commonly associated with The Third Reich.
They didn't need proof for what they believed either BTW, although that didn't stop them manufacturing it anyway.
[/quote]

You are quite correct, but for the most part, political theory is either proven or disproved over the course of time and it evolves, which is not the case with the word of God. :-|

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:05 pm 
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Skull wrote:
Gusmac wrote:
Interesting choice of words. Final solution being more commonly associated with The Third Reich.
They didn't need proof for what they believed either BTW, although that didn't stop them manufacturing it anyway.


You are quite correct, but for the most part, political theory is either proven or disproved over the course of time and it evolves, which is not the case with the word of God. :-|


I would disagree.
The word of God is in reality the interpretation of man. The original word of God, if it ever existed, has long since been lost.
It has changed many times over the years. Judism, Christianity and Islam all came from the same source. The differences now are all differing interpretations of the same word of god.

Even within each, they are divided by their differing interpretations.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:18 pm 
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gusmac wrote:
Skull wrote:
Gusmac wrote:
Interesting choice of words. Final solution being more commonly associated with The Third Reich.
They didn't need proof for what they believed either BTW, although that didn't stop them manufacturing it anyway.


You are quite correct, but for the most part, political theory is either proven or disproved over the course of time and it evolves, which is not the case with the word of God. :-|


I would disagree.
The word of God is in reality the interpretation of man. The original word of God, if it ever existed, has long since been lost.
It has changed many times over the years. Judism, Christianity and Islam all came from the same source. The differences now are all differing interpretations of the same word of god.

Even within each, they are divided by their differing interpretations.


I didn't mean the word of God in the literal sense because as an atheist, I don't believe that God exists. However, in the context of my post and the thread we are debating extremism, and therefore, they believe the Koran to be the actual word of God, delivered to them through the prophet Muhammad having epileptic fits or some kind of seizures or at least. That's how the Christians see it. :-|

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:33 pm 
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Woolwich killing a betrayal of Islam, says Cameron

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22756225

Now that's an interesting piece of appeasement. Apparently, you can betray Islam by cutting the head off a young British soldier, but not your country. :-|

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:36 pm 
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Didn't the average **** zealot believe that his Fuhrer was infallible and do unspeakable things in his name?

It makes no difference if it's in the name of God, Allah, Christ or a small moustached nutjob in a Berlin bunker, some people will always be capable of committing barbarous acts in the name of something or someone they believe in.
Even if you could wipe out all religion, there will always be someone who can influence these people enough to do their evil bidding.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:53 pm 
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gusmac wrote:
Didn't the average **** zealot believe that his Fuhrer was infallible and do unspeakable things in his name?

It makes no difference if it's in the name of God, Allah, Christ or a small moustached nutjob in a Berlin bunker, some people will always be capable of committing barbarous acts in the name of something or someone they believe in.
Even if you could wipe out all religion, there will always be someone who can influence these people enough to do their evil bidding.


So you see Islam as a force for good unlike fascism, which you think should be opposed at every opportunity as a force for evil?

And you do, in fact, put religion into the same category as political theory, but have contradictory ways of dealing with their extremes. Whereas you would oppose fascism vociferously in all its guises, even to the point of using force, you think that a radical religion should be tolerated.

Gusmac, you are more confused than Scooby-doo but you are entitled to your opinion. #-o

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:06 pm 
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Skull wrote:
the simple truth is CC, and I have said this many times before, you cannot debate with someone of religious faith because they do not require a shred of evidence for what they believe,


When a person/persons have a strong faith in their beliefs then it is very difficult, if not impossible, to convince them otherwise. It's very much like debating with you, nobody is entitled to a differing opinion to yours unless of course they can prove beyond doubt that your opinion is wrong. What you seem to forget most of the time is that it is their opinion, it's what they believe to be true. You believe that Islam should be outlawed and that would solve the problem, I don't. I believe if you outlaw such a religion it will make things much worse and as a general rule of thumb your average Muslim no more wants to kill anybody anymore than your average Christian does. You have decided that the atrocities committed in the name of Islam is more deserving of action than those committed by none Muslims or indeed none believers. Your justification for the non believers is that they are political, what do you think is behind the Islamic fundamentalists actions. Do you really believe that the people who are actively brainwashing people into a belief are doing it just in the name of religion, if you do you're a bigger fool than I first thought. There is always a reason behind such actions and usually it's because somebody somewhere can't have what they want. Religion has been used as a way of control by politicians since the year dot and if you think you can separate them you can't. Before you repeat the quotes of others, rather than yourself, don't bother I've read them. I believe that if you commit murder, regardless of your belief then you should be dealt with according to the laws of the land in which you have committed such crime.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:22 pm 
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Skull wrote:
gusmac wrote:
Didn't the average **** zealot believe that his Fuhrer was infallible and do unspeakable things in his name?

It makes no difference if it's in the name of God, Allah, Christ or a small moustached nutjob in a Berlin bunker, some people will always be capable of committing barbarous acts in the name of something or someone they believe in.
Even if you could wipe out all religion, there will always be someone who can influence these people enough to do their evil bidding.


So you see Islam as a force for good unlike fascism, which you think should be opposed at every opportunity as a force for evil?

And you do, in fact, put religion into the same category as political theory, but have contradictory ways of dealing with their extremes. Whereas you would oppose fascism vociferously in all its guises, you think that a radical religion should be tolerated.

Gusmac, you are more confused than Scooby-doo but you are entitled to your opinion. #-o


I see Islam as I see all religions. A means to control the masses and impose someone's will.
In many ways it's not that different to a political dictatorship. It's as benign or as malevolent as the people in charge want it to be, or need it to be.

I do not believe that all followers of a religion are evil, nor do I believe that their religion is in itself evil. I do believe you are right when you say that Islam must put it's own house in order, but I'm sure you're wrong if you think we can do it for them. Measures such as you advocate would be seen, even by the most moderate of Muslims, as an attack on their religion and the result would be far more radicals than we have at the moment.

I don't know what the solution is, but CC is right, we start by pulling our people out of Afghanistan and other places where they are not wanted. We don't participate in illegal wars. We stop selling weapons to scumbags and we stop propping up unpopular regimes.

After that we can at least talk with some sort of moral authority.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:53 pm 
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gusmac wrote:
Skull wrote:
gusmac wrote:
Didn't the average **** zealot believe that his Fuhrer was infallible and do unspeakable things in his name?

It makes no difference if it's in the name of God, Allah, Christ or a small moustached nutjob in a Berlin bunker, some people will always be capable of committing barbarous acts in the name of something or someone they believe in.
Even if you could wipe out all religion, there will always be someone who can influence these people enough to do their evil bidding.


So you see Islam as a force for good unlike fascism, which you think should be opposed at every opportunity as a force for evil?

And you do, in fact, put religion into the same category as political theory, but have contradictory ways of dealing with their extremes. Whereas you would oppose fascism vociferously in all its guises, you think that a radical religion should be tolerated.

Gusmac, you are more confused than Scooby-doo but you are entitled to your opinion. #-o


I see Islam as I see all religions. A means to control the masses and impose someone's will.
In many ways it's not that different to a political dictatorship. It's as benign or as malevolent as the people in charge want it to be, or need it to be.

I do not believe that all followers of a religion are evil, nor do I believe that their religion is in itself evil. I do believe you are right when you say that Islam must put it's own house in order, but I'm sure you're wrong if you think we can do it for them. Measures such as you advocate would be seen, even by the most moderate of Muslims, as an attack on their religion and the result would be far more radicals than we have at the moment.

I don't know what the solution is, but CC is right, we start by pulling our people out of Afghanistan and other places where they are not wanted. We don't participate in illegal wars. We stop selling weapons to scumbags and we stop propping up unpopular regimes.

After that we can at least talk with some sort of moral authority.


I think Gus youve nailed it in your third paragraph ;keep out dont sell them arms =D>

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:58 pm 
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toots wrote:
Skull wrote:
the simple truth is CC, and I have said this many times before, you cannot debate with someone of religious faith because they do not require a shred of evidence for what they believe,


When a person/persons have a strong faith in their beliefs then it is very difficult, if not impossible, to convince them otherwise. It's very much like debating with you, nobody is entitled to a differing opinion to yours unless of course they can prove beyond doubt that your opinion is wrong. What you seem to forget most of the time is that it is their opinion, it's what they believe to be true. You believe that Islam should be outlawed and that would solve the problem, I don't. I believe if you outlaw such a religion it will make things much worse and as a general rule of thumb your average Muslim no more wants to kill anybody anymore than your average Christian does. You have decided that the atrocities committed in the name of Islam is more deserving of action than those committed by none Muslims or indeed none believers. Your justification for the non believers is that they are political, what do you think is behind the Islamic fundamentalists actions. Do you really believe that the people who are actively brainwashing people into a belief are doing it just in the name of religion, if you do you're a bigger fool than I first thought. There is always a reason behind such actions and usually it's because somebody somewhere can't have what they want. Religion has been used as a way of control by politicians since the year dot and if you think you can separate them you can't. Before you repeat the quotes of others, rather than yourself, don't bother I've read them. I believe that if you commit murder, regardless of your belief then you should be dealt with according to the laws of the land in which you have committed such crime.


Toots, a debate is a discussion in which reasons are advanced for or against some proposition or proposal. It’s not just about having a belief or an opinion and sticking with it regardless of how flawed your thinking may be. The trouble is Toots, you and your religious extremist friends have failed to grasp this most basic concept, and that’s where the problem lies for both of you. So you, if anybody toots, should understand exactly where I am coming from. Oh and Toots, your problem is, you think and talk nonsense believing that you have made a valid point. Oh and you also read and understand the argument very poorly to come away with this shi*e but I will indulge you further, in the name of reason.

Yes, I do believe that Islam should be outlawed but only if the Islamic extremism cannot be controlled and irradiated by the Muslim community. I also believe your country should come first before that of your faith, and if you cannot reconcile your support for your country with your faith, then catch the next boat out.

Quote:
You have decided that the atrocities committed in the name of Islam is more deserving of action than those committed by none Muslims or indeed none believers. Your justification for the non-believers is that they are political, what do you think is behind the Islamic fundamentalists actions.


I have decided no such thing. And I do not use politics as a justification for committing atrocities. In fact, as I have said many times before I’m against our foreign policy, and I think Tony Blair should be put on trial as a war criminal. However, the difference between political science or theory and religion is that one evolves and changes over time whereas the "word" of God remains the same. Fanaticism has so far proved itself to be a constant evil within a religion and especially Islam. And as I have said before, you cannot debate with people who do not require a shred of evidence for their beliefs. This would be you also.


Oh and Toots, I used the quotes of Sir Winston Churchill and Marcus Tullius Cicero, to sum up, my position exactly, and that too is a debating method.

Now if that makes me a fascist then so was Winston Churchill and Marcus Tullius.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:28 pm 
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Gusmac writes:
Quote:
I see Islam as I see all religions. A means to control the masses and impose someone's will.

I agree.

Quote:
In many ways it's not that different to a political dictatorship. It's as benign or as malevolent as the people in charge want it to be, or need it to be. I do not believe that all followers of a religion are evil, nor do I believe that their religion is in itself evil.

I agree up to a point, but political dictatorships are the words of men whereas religious extremism is the “word” of God. And that’s why I believe religion is intrinsically evil. It’s like killing by proxy. It’s an order from God, and this is what makes you a good Muslim. And change is resisted to the point of killing people of your own faith, if you do not believe they are devout enough. And this means, if you consider it acceptable to live beside people of other faiths or even Atheists.

Quote:
I do believe you are right when you say that Islam must put it's own house in order, but I'm sure you're wrong if you think we can do it for them. Measures such as you advocate would be seen, even by the most moderate of Muslims, as an attack on their religion and the result would be far more radicals than we have at the moment.

I agree, however, I also believe your country should come first before that of your faith, and if you cannot reconcile your support for your country with your faith, then catch the next boat out. And I don’t think this is unreasonable request under the circumstance. It would weed out the radical Muslims at least to a point, or it would make them easier to identify before they became a problem. And it would also stop this country heading down the route of an Islamic State because make no bones about it, that’s what they want.

Quote:
I don't know what the solution is, but CC is right, we start by pulling our people out of Afghanistan and other places where they are not wanted. We don't participate in illegal wars. We stop selling weapons to scumbags and we stop propping up unpopular regimes.

After that we can at least talk with some sort of moral authority.

I agree.

Funny that Gusmac, we don't seem to be worlds apart after all. :shock:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:23 am 
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Skull wrote:
Toots, a debate is a discussion in which reasons are advanced for or against some proposition or proposal. It’s not just about having a belief or an opinion and sticking with it regardless of how flawed your thinking may be. The trouble is Toots, you and your religious extremist friends have failed to grasp this most basic concept, and that’s where the problem lies for both of you. So you, if anybody toots, should understand exactly where I am coming from. Oh and Toots, your problem is, you think and talk nonsense believing that you have made a valid point. Oh and you also read and understand the argument very poorly to come away with this shi*e but I will indulge you further, in the name of reason.


You can't half chat some sh*te and come away having said very little at all :roll:

My religious extremist friends :? I think you must confused I don't have any religious extremist friends you fool

A debate is just a formal discussion and so far you have failed to persuade me to your side of the argument, you have not provided sufficient evidence to prove your point, what evidence have you provided that if you ban Islam the fundamentalist will go away. that senseless killing will be stopped or indeed that Islam won't be taught anyway in secret?

As regards to making a valid point it is you who believes that the point you made is valid, it's not I all I did was express an opinion. It's my opinion, of which I am entitled to have regardless of your opinion, that you are a crazy person driven to your beliefs through emotional ties. Also if I read and understood the argument very poorly then perhaps it was the way it was written As you will undoubtedly know it is important to keep things simple, because, although you may wish to sound clever you could come across as incomprehensible and that is another debating skill, ffs.

Skull wrote:
Oh and Toots, I used the quotes of Sir Winston Churchill and Marcus Tullius Cicero, to sum up, my position exactly, and that too is a debating method.

Now if that makes me a fascist then so was Winston Churchill and Marcus Tullius.


You should try expressing yourself more eloquently to sum up your position in your own words rather than using the words of others over and over again. I didn't call you fascist I think you're fool, but, that is only my opinion.

Here is something else that is my opinion, let the person that commits the crime face the punishment you can not hold the misguided beliefs of a crazy person against a whole host of other people just because the crazy person named their religion as the reason for their murdering act.

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