Taxi Driver Online

Here's a thought

If a survey now has to take account of demand, even if it's only at peak times (example 3am on a sat) then one would of thought the same arguement can be applyed to seasons?

For example Brighton is due a survey, which Im guessing wont be taking place in the height of the summer trade.

So if there is equalibrium (for arguement sake)out of the summer season (say spring) then one could argue that the summer there would be demand that isnt being met and the survey isnt addressing.............just a thought

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Dont confuse "The Knowledge" with "knowledge"

they canbt do it then as all the students who will be ticking the boxes will have gone homew.
still i think halcrow will give the council exactly the answer they want.
not sure what that will be. but the council set the guidelines.

from todays local newspaper:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?T20E351AC

CITY TAXI COURT APPEAL ADJOURNED

12:00 - 13 February 2006
A Plymouth taxi rank was surveyed by two people at the same time - and each came up with different cab figures, an appeal hearing has heard.

Two observers working on a survey of Plymouth's Hackney carriages mistakenly went to same the rank at Old Town Street. They recorded different figures for the number of cabs passing through the rank, Plymouth Crown Court heard.

Taxifast, run by John Preece, is appealing a council decision from 2003 to refuse it 30 Hackney licences.

Alan Newman QC, representing the appellant, private hire firm Taxifast, raised the figures as one of several examples, he claimed, of errors in the way the survey was carried out on behalf of the city council in January and February 2005 by consultants Transport Planning (International) Ltd.

He claimed the wrong rank was observed in Cornwall Street, closed ranks were surveyed and taxis parked on a rank at the Torpoint ferry were counted when they were just parking to use a snack bar.

Paul McKee, of TPi, said the figures obtained by the surveyor who went to the wrong rank were not included in final calculations.

Barrister James Findlay, for Plymouth City Council, said: 'figures for cab delay has had no impact on figures for passenger delay'.

The TPi report's finding was that there is no 'significant unmet demand' for black cabs in Plymouth. The report is being relied on by the council in the appeal.

The appeal was adjourned for just over two weeks.

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IDFIMH

But there would be no relevance to the numbers of Taxi's using the rank, but what would be noted would be if passengers were at any time during observation, waiting for Taxi's. How many cabs can use this particular rank? Were observers expected to log cabs onto, and off the rank, timing the waiting times of cabs for passengers? So, providing intending passengers were picking up a cab on demand at the rank, the number of cabs using it is surely not the point of the exercise? Did the number of passengers waiting for cabs tally between the observers? Just a wild guess here, but I'm thinking none at all? If the observers were unaware of each others presence, and were covert, it would be surprising if their numbers DID tally. Because the observations could not possibly have started and finished at any exact point in time, could they now? Blimey. there must have been loads of cabs there plying for hire, to be mis-counted?

the point here is not about the technical figures but the fact that the whole survey has become a joke and appears to have been undertook by people who have no clue as to what they are supposed to be doing. all evidence that the survey is not worth the paper it is written on (in crayon no doubt!!)

I've not forgotten you streetcar, I'll reply shortly.

Regards

JD

theres a few surprises to go here yet, just wait until taxifast present there own big money MORI survey as evidence

I look forward to what Mr TPI has to say to that.

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IDFIMH

This case is scheduled to resume today, with a little luck it will be all wrapped up by Friday. I wouldn't expect a decision right away but if the applicant loses I've no doubt it will go to judicial review.

Regards

JD

TAXI BOSS CHALLENGES SUMS OVER DEMAND FOR BLACK CABS

A mathematical formula used to work out the amount of time people had to queue for a taxi was branded inaccurate and likely to give 'highly misleading' results, an appeal hearing has heard.

Lawyers representing city firm Taxifast attacked the maths used by consultants working for Plymouth City Council when they challenged a survey in court yesterday.

Taxifast is appealing a council decision to refuse it 30 Hackney carriage licences in 2003.

The council, which imposes a black cab limit of 359, is relying on the survey carried out by consultants Transport Planning (International) Ltd last year.

The survey found there was 'no significant unmet demand' for more black cabs. It used maths to show the average wait for a Hackney cab in Plymouth was 0.35 minutes - about 20 seconds. But yesterday, Alan Newman QC, for Taxifast, quoted from a report by Professor Charles Taylor, a statistician at the University of Leeds, which said 'Little's formula', used to calculate the mean delay, was more suited to the study of queues of goods on conveyor belts and using hypothetical taxi queue scenarios showed it was 'highly misleading' and 'biased'.

Dr Jeremy Toner, of the Institute of Transport Studies at the University of Leeds, called by the council to defend the formula, said: "I'm satisfied this is an acceptable approximation. It's the standard method used by consultants and academics working in this field."

The hearing, before Mr Recorder Jonathan Fuller QC and two magistrates, was due to continue at the Guildhall today.

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IDFIMH

I've not forgotten you streetcar, I'll reply shortly.

Regards You never responded so i asked a very respected member of the taxi trade in Lverpool . This was his response .



Right, the company's that actually tender to the councils for the contract submit a full complex diagram of what they intend to do, the cost can vary tremendously, some companies can do a great deal more for less money, so the money side does not necessarily represent the best job for the most money, The actual stand surveillance part of the survey is only a small part of the big picture, whether it is done covertly or not I would think it is neither here nor there, the company will meet, with members of the trade, it will write to members of the trade, it will contact all interested parties outside of the trade,ie Disabled groups, it will also contact private hire companies, that is depending on what they have offered to to do, a camera being broken is neither here nor there. The licensing committee has a responsibility to act fairly, but it also has the power to act in the best interests of the big picture, the committee for fills its responsibilities by commissioning the survey, if the survey is not done correctly, it is not their responsibility ,that is an issue between the survey company and whoever, the committee has to justify its decision, and has to show that it has for filled its obligations fairly, in other words if the committee made a decision on the evidence that they believed to be correct then that decision could not be deemed as unfair, and you must remember the Law does not say that you have to have a survey to know that there is no unmet demand, but the courts recognize a independent survey.

Although I answered part of the question you asked I feel that I should explain a little bit more, it is not a simple yes or no answer, you would have to go back to the very beginning, you would have to know the chain of events,ie at what date was the first application made and how long did it take the council to respond, if the council did not reply for say nine months then this could be deemed as unreasonable, but say the council replied within two months stating that they were not issuing plates because they are instigating a survey shortly, then that would be reasonable, if it took the council say three months to sort out the tenders, and then it took the company who won the tender three months to complete the survey and finalize its report to the council, then that would be deemed reasonable, and then another month before it went before council, start to finish nine months, answer, no, for anyone to really judge the outcome, you would have to have full knowledge of what is being presented, only a fool would show their argument before they presented it to the bench. LIVERPOOL EXPERT ON TAXI TRADE . IF THERE ARE ANY SPELLING OR OTHER ERRORS ITS DOWN TO ME, AS I WAS ONLY TAKING NOTES . streetcars

Pity then don't then

The rest of that is like the Conservative "statement of values" published earlier this week - vacuous nothing-speak that barely anyone could disagree with.

But the substance is another matter entirely.

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Taxi Driver Online
www.taxi-driver.co.uk

I only briefly read through the Liverpool survey, so in order to give you a breakdown of its accuracy I would need to digest it fully.

Until the recent Plymouth case, surveys in the past have never been challenged in depth. The reason for that is because no past applicants have had the resources to conduct their own survey and then produce experts in court to testify that the councils survey is flawed. The fact that past surveys have never been fully challenged does not mean they are not flawed. In order to challenge a survey with any degree of accuracy you need to have a good local knowledge of the area as a whole and how the Taxi system works. You also need a good understanding of past case law and have a reasonable understanding of maths. Perhaps a combination of a taxi driver, a lawyer and mathematician would be perfect. Lol.

In respect of your question about a camera not working in Liverpool, it stands to reason that if a camera wasn't working then the evidence that the camera was supposed to gather could not be included in any report. At least until such time the camera was tested as working. If they did include evidence from the camera in question and you knew the camera they obtained that evidence from was not functioning, it would mean the company had manipulated the visual evidence. However it would be for you to prove the camera wasn't working and I suspect without examining the camera in question you might have a hard time proving that. On the other hand if the camera was not working and the report stated it was not working, then that of course is evidence that they did not survey the area as a whole. Then again you have to take into account the whole complexity of surveying the area as a whole.

The best way to prove a survey wrong is by proving the figures are wrong. Figures cannot lie and if you can prove the survey figures are grossly inaccurate then that alone should be enough to convince the judiciary that the survey is flawed.

I don't know what points the QC in Plymouth has made in respect of the council's survey but I have it on good authority that the council's survey has been rubbished beyond all recognition. However, I have no way of knowing if that observation is correct, therefore I won't subscribe to that theory until such time I see the judgement of the Recorder.

In short, not hiding stance observers from public view in my opinion is not likely to influence a judge's perception on the outcome of a survey. I would be very surprised if he said otherwise, concentrating so much time on that issue in my opinion was unnecessary. Time should have been spent on breaking down the survey by concentrating on matters that were excluded from the survey such as surveying the area as a whole instead of concentrating on just a few city taxi ranks. The time of year the survey was conducted i.e. January, which is the quietest month of the year by up to 50% of reduced taking's. Breaking down the ratio of street and radio hires to that of rank hires. Concentrating on the quality of manpower employed to conduct the survey, which of course they did. I would have also raised the issue of plate premiums and that both the DfT and the Cannock chase judgement stated that demand in a certain place at a certain time must be counted as being unmet demand.

There are many flaws that can be found in surveys because we all know that they are not infallible, it is having the time and knowledge to comb through all the data of a survey report and then compiling your own report to go to war with. You are best placed to do that if you are blessed with a degree of the three elements I mentioned earlier.

The cost of such a challenge in legal terms and consultant terms can be astronomical as will be seen when the costs of this Plymouth case are calculated. I expect this case to shed some new light on surveys but because it is a crown court appeal and the judge has to go on the evidence before him in respect of the application being refused I am leaning towards the judgement going in favour of the council. When it goes to judicial review I fully expect the decision to be reversed and Mr Preece will get his licenses. We have to blame the nature of the legal system in coming to the right decision in a roundabout way. Whatever that decision may be.

It should be remembered that there were many failings on both sides in this contest. First, the council hadn't had a survey for years which made them vulnerable under the law and second the applicant waited far too long before he brought the case to court. The applicant could have got an order of mandamus forcing the council to make a decision on his application this he did not do. The case should have gone to judicial review because that is where it will ultimately end up but all this could have been done and dusted and settled in the applicants favour a long time ago.

Regards

JD

Thanks JD for all the time and trouble you have gone to . To reply . Regards Streetcars .