Taxi Driver Online

Can anyone shed any light on the following questions regarding loss of earnings and the deregulation of H/C numbers ?

It was suggested in the Transport select committee hearing on wed 28th Jan that H/C drivers earnings would be affected.

I would like to hear views on by how much H/C earnings will decrease, and estimations on the reduced number of hirings per shift, comparing the same time scale worked before deregulation?

Best wishes

John Davies
Manchester.

I can probably get some facts together for you, however they are contrary to what was suggested at the house of commons

Since de-limitation in our area, I would suggest that drivers are earning more money, due to the local association successfully negotiating with the local authority.

Almost all the private hire that switched to hackney have left their radio's in, therefore not seriously affecting the streetwork of hackneys with no radios.

sorry, no scare story to report

regards

captain cab

In some areas I'm told earnings goes down, in others earnings go up.

If you are a non-worker HC vehicle owner, then I think it fair to say that your earnings will decrease.

If you are a HC journeyman, and choose to remain so, then I think your earnings will remain much the same, providing driver and vehicle standards are maintained. If the standards are increased, then earnings could in the short term also increase.

If you are a full-time working HC vehicle owner, then it all depends on how many PH vehicle owners change to HC vehicle owners.

If you work in a mandatory area, then less will. If you work in an area that has a stiff knowledge for HC, but an easy one for PH, then again less PH will convert.

If you work in an area that has the same conditions for HC as PH, then many more PH will convert. But will that be the end of the world?

Don't forget those ex PH had customers already. They are not going to disappear.

In my opinion, we will still have the same number of customers, and the same number of licensed vehicles. The only difference is many more of them will be HC, instead of PH.

So John, to answer you question, some will lose out, but many more will either earn the same or be better off.

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IDFIMH

Well for what irts worth I think it depends on how its done, if its done like gateshead no one will earn anything, but if quality is inbuilt then we should all be better off and customers will always have a taxi when and where they need it.

The quality of PH firms are also a factor.

For example if a customers becomes use to a good quality ph company who turn up when you ask them and take provide a safe comfortable journey then they are going to 'put in the call' and not trawl the streets in the hope of finding someone 'who will condescend' to take them home.

This day, when 90% of folks have a phone in there pocket they are more likely to make phone calls.

Before Mick asks how I come to this assumption. We have a town centre office, ten years ago we had about 80 walk-in jobs a day. Now we don't get 20. When we investigated it we discovered that we get the difference in mobile phone calls from within a 1/4 mile of our office.

The growing lazyiness of our punters is too the benefit of the radio circuits, ph or hack.

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A member of the Hire or Reward Industry

I thank you for your comments gentlemen. I was trying to lay a ghost to rest by submitting that question in order to bury another question. I must admit however, I was taken aback to hear that some areas had actually increased trade after deregulation, good luck to them.

The reason why I asked that particular question, was because the impact on earnings argument crops up in practically every report submitted by the trade in conjuction with deregulation. Last week we had the select committee reading from the same hymnbook as the officials who represented the regulated H/C trade. I find myself at odds with the reasoning in these reports and the more I think about it the more absurd it gets.

Personally, I believe in my Lincenced Area earnings will go down, but thats not the rabit I'm after.

I'm after killing the myth that there will be less cabs out at night. This little acorn has been produced time after time and the select committee with the help of Peter piper picked a pick of pickled pepper perkins, convinced themselves that this was the case.

I'm going to try and reason out why the two statements by the great and the good in the Taxi trade are at odds with each other.

We can accept, that increased numbers means more competition on the public highways, at our Airports, Train stations, Bus stations, and nightclubs. This goes without saying. I think therefore a slight drop in earnings may be accepted as not being too far from the truth.

If earnings drop, it can only mean one thing, cabbies are doing less jobs than they were before Deregulation. If cabbies are doing less jobs it means the influx of new owners are taking a share of the market that was previously only available to existing Cab drivers before deregulation. It also means if cabbies are doing less jobs the streets are getting cleared faster. If the streets are getting cleared faster then there must be more cabs available.

That brings us to the question of why does the T & G and certain other protagonists who write reports with this issue in mind state that "there will be less cabs out at night under deregulation".

They write it because they have to gild the lilly and put up a smoke screen as to why they really want to stop uncle tom cobly and all picking up off the street. My fellow owners want the streets to remain firmly in the grip of the few at the expense of the many.

Why couldn't the Select committe reason that less earnings equate to more available cabs. If there were no cabs out at night, it would mean the select few who are out, were having a field day. In the real world that doesn't happen, so why are the T & G and certain other elements of the Cab Trade living this fantasy that more cabs equals a poorer night time service?

In Manchester we were Ranking up at 3-20 this morning. By 4 am the majority of cabs could be seen parked up outside restaurants as most people called it a night.

Back in the 70's and early 80's we wouldn't be ranked up at weekend until between 4-00 and 4-30. Back then we had half the cabs we have now, and half the Students.

So in 2004 with double the students and double the cabs we are able to clear the streets at weekend faster than we could in the 70's and 80's.

Does logic not dictate that a further increase in Taxi numbers will further lessen the time punters have to wait for a cab. Deregulation will probably see the doubling of Cabs in Manchester so I assume we could be ranking up at weekend between 2-45 and 3-00 AM, maybe sooner.

Why has the correlation between ranking up times never been mentioned. Can we have a response from the T & G and the North West Taxi association as to why we now rank up earlier than we did in the 70's and 80's. They can't say its because we have more cabs, because they are already on record as saying more cabs equals a lesser night time public service.

What they could say of course is, oh! its because of the double shift system.

The double shift system is another myth, whoever dreamed that one up deserves a knighthood. The NWTA make a big play about how the Double shift system benefits punters at night. They wrote a response to the OFT report and called it "The Myth of the of Taxicab Derestriction". It should have been called "The Myth of the Double shift system".

I sugest the bods who wrote that report come to Mancherster at 3 am from Sunday to Thursday and count the cabs on the town, they will see the reality of the so called Double shift system. What they will see is more akin to a ghost town. Out of 835 cabs you will be lucky to get 50 staying out after 3 AM on the Town. Why didn't you put that in your report NWTA?

The same will happen under deregulation, if it ever comes about. Cab drivers will not hang around in the early hours of the morning when there is no work. I accept that Deregulation will make drivers more work hungry, therefore I would say there is every likelyhood that more drivers will be out in the small hours, than is the case at present. I suppose time will tell.

Finally I give a word of constructive criticism to the people who write these fictitous reports, "you are fooling no one" all you are doing is making yourself look foolish in the eyes of the Taxi trade. If you want to represent me and people like me cut the bullchit and present a solid case based on fact not Fantasy.

Then again, how can you defend the undefensible?

"I suppose that little lot will ruffle a few feathers" lol

Best wishes

John Davies.
Manchester

Again a well constructed argument John.

In my small town our market has changed over the last 20 years.

Back then all the pubs shut at 11. There was a nightclub two miles out of town that stayed open until 2.

So we had the 11 o'clock rush and then one at 2.

Nowadays pubs shut at 11,12,1 and 2. Not surprisingly the nightclub is now a 'day nursery'.

More folks go out to dinner these days, then it was men down the pub.

I fully accept the argument that the crucial element is finding a way to ensure that taxis/PH are there to meet demand.

I have talked to three Operators who run '200+' fleets and they all admitted that at peak time on a Saturday night they don't have much more than 80 cars on the road.

I own my fleet and we don't have 50% of the vehicles out on a Saturday night, but then pub work is such a small element of our business.

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A member of the Hire or Reward Industry

John,

First of all and without being over complimentary, I think you have hit the nail right on the head, your points are valid and correct.

The emphasis on a double shift system is nothing more than a smokescreen, there is no evidence either way that after de-limitation taxis will either increase or decrease on an evening.

What we have found is that it stays roughly the same. Drivers who previously worked for someone on nights and then buy their own cab, have in almost all examples stayed on their old shift.

Sometimes they start a little earlier and maybe finish a little earlier, but not until the rush finishes.

The same with predominantly dayshift drivers, they dont change shifts, but may well towards a weekend work on until the early evening rush is out of the way.

All in all, as sussex has stated, the total number of licensed vehicles does not dramatically change.

Once again, good points!

Regards

Captain Cab

In every un-met taxi demand survey that I have read John, it always has a number of people who either don't use taxis,
a) cos they are not available when they need them,
b) or it's quicker to get a night bus,
c) or they can never get one in the out-skirts thus get a bus,
d) or they just walk home.

Now the amount of lost custom can vary from location to location, but if they don't use cabs, for whatever reason, then no-one wins.

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IDFIMH

It is only a civil servant that could come out with such nonsense.

All drivers have bills to pay.

If a HC journeymen decides to go on his own, then his out goings will increase significantly. There is no way he will be able to fund those increases by changing from nights to days.

Some PH drivers might, but again they would also have had an increase in out goings, if they have to buy a WAV.

But in time it will even out, if for no other reason than it will have too.

Cos as I said, all drivers have bills to pay.

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IDFIMH

This point was clarified by Dusty, a few weeks ago.

Someone from the T&G mentioned that despite there being far more cabs in Sheffield, customer waiting times remained the same.

This was put in a bad light, but in reality it's a good thing.

If you have 500 taxis picking up 500 customers before de-limit, and then you have 700 taxis picking up 700 customers after de-limit, although you might have more cabs, you also have more punters.

Whereas before de-limit, those punters were using legal PH, illegal PH, night buses, legs, but they weren't using cabs.

As for you question about why some scare-monger, it's quite simple, because they have no plan other than to scare-monger.

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IDFIMH

I agree with Captain Cab. You make a good point John. However, I think there are other issues to be taken into consideration, and they are not all financial ones.

As Tom said, our night trade too has changed over the last 20 years. In the old days, we had a high movement ratio all evening, as people moved from pub to pub and then to clubs. All that has stopped, with many staying in the same pubs all evening, and, we have less pubs now, and more restaurants. Midweek now, we quieten down at around 1am, and at around 3am at wekends.

Of the available fleet, only about 50% of our cars work Friday and Saturday nights, whereas we have 99% of our fleet out between 7am and 6pm weekdays. In the old days, we would roster 100% of our fleet at the weekends.

Part of this difference is down to the fact that we also have a "part-time" taxi company in our town, which only works evenings and weekends.

The biggest fator however, is that most of our drivers are middle-aged, and simply cannot live with the yob culture that rears its head in this area at nights. They simply dont want to risk their necks anymore for an unappreciative market.

We have been delimited now for about 30 years. Asking the old hands, they say that there was no licensed PH in the old days, just Taxis and unlicensed cars. The only effect of delimitation they can remember, is that the unlicensed cars became licensed hacks, and there was a generall increase in quality.

When PH had to become licensed (that was around 1985 here), no one bothered with PH anymore, as everyone went hackney.

Today, there are just a few PH (perhaps half a dozen) mostly Transit minibuses, and they are only PH cos they are cheaper to insure.

Frankly, the view locally is that delimitation does not make a lot of difference, as most of the new hacks would be PH cars swapping over, and they already have their own clientelle.

We have had new start-ups over the years, and when these have happened it has of course diluted the market for a while, but it seems to be the case that the more cabs there are about, the more the market grows.

It hurts for a while, but always seems to rebound and find its own level again.

New people come in, some leave, the market kind of creates its own balance.

If we are consistently losing calls at the weekends, we put more cars out. If its quiet, they bog off home. The whole thing is down to balance.

The one area where I do think more hacks would make a difference, is on the ranks of large towns. Ranks have a finite capacity.

The person most likely to lose money from delimit, is the independent with no radio who relies solely from rank work. Delimitation may well hit him hard.

Thats why, unlike Andy or Dusty, I believe that delimitation is a good thing, but should be phased. Perhaps a system where a percentage of those on the waiting list at a defined point, plus a percentage of PH cars are allowed to replate each year.

Simultaneously, I also feel that qualitative standards should be rationalised bewteen the two plate types, and enhanced quality enforcement should be phased in, as the plate numbers are gradually increased to what might be termed the saturation point. Ie. No one left on the waiting list.

Next, if I were the Government. I would start to level the playing field between PSV and hackney licences, and community schemes. But thats another story...

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There is Significant Unmet Demand for my Opinion.