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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 7:36 pm 
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Wharfie wrote:
But I am saying they dont need to have independent surveys, they just have to prove there is no unmet demand. maybe thier own survey?



Well you may be correct Wharfy, but my understanding is that if challenged in court then only an independent survey was sufficient.

Dusty


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 7:38 pm 
Dusty Bin wrote:
Wharfie wrote:
But I am saying they dont need to have independent surveys, they just have to prove there is no unmet demand. maybe thier own survey?



Well you may be correct Wharfy, but my understanding is that if challenged in court then only an independent survey was sufficient.

Dusty


maybe we will never know, the argument is symantic.

Wharfie


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 7:45 pm 
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Wharfie wrote:
remember DDA is not about taxis and private hire its about access to all buildings and buisnnesses and equal access to services.

sometimes councils and others need guidance on these things, I remember our council had all the right policies but when an application came to put a ramp outside our listed building post office it was refused on the grounds that it would detract from the character.

dda concentrated thier minds.

Wharfie


Yes, the main provisions of the DDA (which come into force next year, I believe) cover access to buildings and services etc.

However, the specific taxi provisions have of course never been implemented, and there is no definitive advice as to when or if they will be implemented as far as I know.

And, of course, PH were always specifically excluded as far as wheelchair accessibility is required.

As for guidance from central government, the salient point is presumably the difference between guidance on voluntary measures (ie the current local transport plans?) and mandatory measures (ie the DDA if and when it is implemented).

Dusty


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 7:48 pm 
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Wharfie wrote:
maybe we will never know, the argument is symantic.

Wharfie


Well I daresay that there's a case that says outlines whether they are required or not, ie a legal precedent on whether surveys are compulsory.

I don't have access to the detailed case law, but I know a man who does :)

Dusty


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 7:53 pm 
Dusty Bin wrote:
Wharfie wrote:
remember DDA is not about taxis and private hire its about access to all buildings and buisnnesses and equal access to services.

sometimes councils and others need guidance on these things, I remember our council had all the right policies but when an application came to put a ramp outside our listed building post office it was refused on the grounds that it would detract from the character.

dda concentrated thier minds.

Wharfie


Yes, the main provisions of the DDA (which come into force next year, I believe) cover access to buildings and services etc.

However, the specific taxi provisions have of course never been implemented, and there is no definitive advice as to when or if they will be implemented as far as I know.

And, of course, PH were always specifically excluded as far as wheelchair accessibility is required.

As for guidance from central government, the salient point is presumably the difference between guidance on voluntary measures (ie the current local transport plans?) and mandatory measures (ie the DDA if and when it is implemented).

Dusty


Well there has been advice of course but the government has not approved it, as the advice as I understand it is not one that lti or metrocab can coipe with, again as I understand it only the merc conversion can comply fully.

having a rank full of mercs reduces the number of cabs that can go on them, frightfull isnt it?

we are chasing our tails, in the meantime some stupid las are insisting on purpose built cabs?

I doubt if we will see all accessible cabs in my lifetime, but I will do my bit!

Wharfie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:07 pm 
Dusty Bin wrote:
Wharfie wrote:
maybe we will never know, the argument is symantic.

Wharfie


Well I daresay that there's a case that says outlines whether they are required or not, ie a legal precedent on whether surveys are compulsory.

I don't have access to the detailed case law, but I know a man who does :)

Dusty


no honestly there isnt and when it comes down to it what qualificatins do these people have?

let me tell you what happens they get a load of kids to record movements
then come out with reports on sudden unmet demand and the like

they for whatever reason study only ranks, though that tells a lot its not the whole story.

in our ward the report mentioned taxis that should not have been there! yes they should they were all licensed to be there!

but they dazzle courts with technicality they are no match for the likes of those who think premiums are there to keep driver wages up!

Wharfie


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:27 pm 
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Anonymous wrote:
My quote above was from an e-mail received from the Department of Transport.


From my experience of correspondence with the DOT, it can be read many ways, and each way is usually interpreted how we each want it to be interpreted.

I would be amazed if the DOT, at this stage, said anything bar bland bleeding obvious statements.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:33 pm 
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Wharfie wrote:
Halifax said 5 new licenses over 5 years per year and a dirty deal was done by the Halifax owners to volutary go all cab to avoid it, though I point out the new licenses were to get wavs in 2 years later there is less wavs than when the report was done.

a challenge has been done and the court found for the council, though it has to be said the challenge was for new saloons and was a week challenge

I see things very differently from you, and it depends on the advocasy and our advocasy is often wickedly poor.

Wharfie


I have never seen your Halcrow report Wharfy, but I suspect it says something like;

1. We have found no evidence of Significant Unmet Demand.
2. However we have found a lack of WAVs.
3. If the council doesn't issue any new HC plates, then they must survey in 3/4/5 years.
4. However if the council was to issue say 5 plates a year, then they would be able to defend the limit for a longer period.
5. Therefore we offer the option of issuing 5 new HC plates per year, on the basis of them being made to be WAVs.

That in my opinion, is why they successfully defended their position in the courts.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:38 pm 
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Wharfie wrote:
Dusty, I am sorry but you are wrong! the council are not bound to have a report or comply to it! they are not bound to limit by number or severe restrictions, its all in your mind

I can name you cities that have limits and no study!

you give them far more importance that they have!

Wharfie


I'm not sure that any court would take any evidence other than a Demand Report.

I would say that many councils have had to either issue bundles of plates, or delimit, because they didn't have independent evidence.

I would also say that Cities that don't survey, yet still keep their limit, are run by HC unions that wish to keep their premiums, and PH operators who wish to keep their PH drivers, PH drivers.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:52 pm 
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Wharfie wrote:
But I am saying they dont need to have independent surveys, they just have to prove there is no unmet demand. maybe thier own survey?


The problem with a council doing it's own survey, is that if a driver applies for a HC vehicle license, when the council decides it is then making a licensing decision (quasi judicial), and judging on it's own evidence.

In my opinion, bound to failure on appeal.

But bearing in mind it's the trade that pays for surveys, why wouldn't a council wish to be safe from any hassle. Most councils that I know, thrive on being able to say "nothing to do with me guv".


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:57 pm 
Andy.
you are correct in 1,2,3,and 5

predictable arnet they?

Wharfie


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:58 pm 
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Dusty Bin wrote:
Well I daresay that there's a case that says outlines whether they are required or not, ie a legal precedent on whether surveys are compulsory.

I don't have access to the detailed case law, but I know a man who does :)

Dusty


Well case law on surveys is a little thin, cos they don't usually question the findings of a survey, just a council's decision to de-limit following a survey.

In the Bunch case down in Brighton many moons ago, the judge noted approval of surveys. Since then judges seem to take surveys as being the only proper way of assessing demand. This view is shared (I believe) by NATPHLEO and the top notch Taxi legal eagles.

Including me. :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:59 pm 
Sussex Man wrote:
Wharfie wrote:
Dusty, I am sorry but you are wrong! the council are not bound to have a report or comply to it! they are not bound to limit by number or severe restrictions, its all in your mind

I can name you cities that have limits and no study!

you give them far more importance that they have!

Wharfie


I'm not sure that any court would take any evidence other than a Demand Report.

I would say that many councils have had to either issue bundles of plates, or delimit, because they didn't have independent evidence.

I would also say that Cities that don't survey, yet still keep their limit, are run by HC unions that wish to keep their premiums, and PH operators who wish to keep their PH drivers, PH drivers.


well, courts like expert witnesses dont they?

hardly what I am arguing, but I think you are correct.

Wharfie


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:01 pm 
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Wharfie wrote:
Andy.
you are correct in 1,2,3,and 5

predictable arnet they?

Wharfie


I'm a little bit gutted I didn't get 5 out of 5. :(


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:04 pm 
Sussex Man wrote:
Wharfie wrote:
But I am saying they dont need to have independent surveys, they just have to prove there is no unmet demand. maybe thier own survey?


The problem with a council doing it's own survey, is that if a driver applies for a HC vehicle license, when the council decides it is then making a licensing decision (quasi judicial), and judging on it's own evidence.

In my opinion, bound to failure on appeal.

But bearing in mind it's the trade that pays for surveys, why wouldn't a council wish to be safe from any hassle. Most councils that I know, thrive on being able to say "nothing to do with me guv".




well daady judgement said they have to give thier reasoning didnt it?

so you will be right again I was going from what the law said!

Wharfie


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