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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:12 am 
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A council could quite well get away without a survey (no doubt many do) if those who want a plate locally aren't up to speed and don't know the score re surveys, or perhaps if the council calls the applicant's bluff and the applicant decides not to persue the matter.

But legally, the council must adhere to what's in the survey, so if it says issue 19 (as in Brighton) then they must issue 19 or they'd lose in court. The survey would probably say that they must re-survey within a specified period, and if the LA doesn't then it leaves itself open to challenge.

There's also the question of interim assessment between the big surveys, this seems to be what Dundee City Council fell down on, whether that's specified in the English case law I don't know, but no doubt Andy does :roll:

Dusty


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:20 am 
Mick wrote:
Does it not provide an obligation for a council that undertakes a survey for un-met demand to continue to undertake such surveys at regular intervals.

What I mean is that if council changes local legislation becuase of an un-met demand surveys results does it not need to continue to undertake surveys in order to justify the legislatory change, ie if a survey was to find an extra 19 plates were required over the next three years would it not be required to undertake another survey after those three years to assess any further requirements.

Or does the councils right to take no action justify having surveys when they want them and not when the trade demand them.

B. Lucky :twisted:


nO mICK IT DOESNT surveys dont appear in the law, but let me tell you where they come in!

after the ridley transport act many councils including mine were circulated by Leeds University Transport School, who said why not let us take the strain, let us survey your area and we will provide expert witnesses for you.

they came rather succesfull and won every challenge, a lot of students went to set up Halcrow Fox and more and more councils contacted them to do independent surveys for them

Independent is a prostitution of the word they are no more independant than me or you, in fact we might be more independant!

They interview offices and produce the report on what officers think.

its an industry set up and its a joke.

but no the law does not require them all the law requires is for a council to proove met demand to have limit by numbers

as someone who has all figures for every taxi in 2 zones I can proove that these surveys are bullshit.

Wharfie


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:22 am 
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Note that the Govt's response within 90 days is a standard protocol when the OFT or CC recommend changes in law or regulations.

Yes, as we concluded on TTFUK last year, if a new Act was needed then it would take a few years to implement, and of course a CC reference would add at least another year to the process.

Of course, the Govt could still use an Regulatory Reform Order to delimit nationally, ie the original clause 1.147c, and this would be considerably quicker than primary legislation, ie an Act of Parliament.

However, I just can't see the OFT or CC recommending minor changes, so it would probably need a full Act of Parliament.

Dusty


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:33 am 
Dusty Bin wrote:
A council could quite well get away without a survey (no doubt many do) if those who want a plate locally aren't up to speed and don't know the score re surveys, or perhaps if the council calls the applicant's bluff and the applicant decides not to persue the matter.

But legally, the council must adhere to what's in the survey, so if it says issue 19 (as in Brighton) then they must issue 19 or they'd lose in court. The survey would probably say that they must re-survey within a specified period, and if the LA doesn't then it leaves itself open to challenge.

There's also the question of interim assessment between the big surveys, this seems to be what Dundee City Council fell down on, whether that's specified in the English case law I don't know, but no doubt Andy does :roll:

Dusty


I profoundaly disagree with you!

Halifax said 5 new licenses over 5 years per year and a dirty deal was done by the Halifax owners to volutary go all cab to avoid it, though I point out the new licenses were to get wavs in 2 years later there is less wavs than when the report was done.

a challenge has been done and the court found for the council, though it has to be said the challenge was for new saloons and was a week challenge

I see things very differently from you, and it depends on the advocasy and our advocasy is often wickedly poor.

Wharfie


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:45 am 
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I'm not quite sure what you mean Wharfy, surely the numbers specified in the report wouldn't change whatever vehicles were specified??

Dusty


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:03 am 
Dusty Bin wrote:
I'm not quite sure what you mean Wharfy, surely the numbers specified in the report wouldn't change whatever vehicles were specified??

Dusty


the only unmet demand these turkeys found with private hire plying all around them was for WAVS

AS they were sitting on an application from me which by the way hasnt to date been determined with my evidence for unmet demand for WAVS, THE HALCROW FOX study merely aggreed there was no evidence to resist my application.

as I say the council got what they wanted no more no less.

Wharfie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:34 am 
Our last survey was done 6 years ago and recomended 5 plates to be issued for WAV's.

The councils are not bound by the findings of any report and can choose to completely ignore them, thats why that 5 has turned into 150.

Its strange though that everyone connected with council activities at the time is no longer there, and you wouldn't believe me if I told you where some of them are now.

B. Lucky :twisted:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:38 pm 
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Yes, the council are not bound by any independent survey report if they don't want to limit numbers, but if they do want to limit numbers then they are legally bound by the report's recommendations.

So what happened to the people responsible in Gateshead then Mick???

Dusty :?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:52 pm 
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Wharfie wrote:
the only unmet demand these turkeys found with private hire plying all around them was for WAVS

AS they were sitting on an application from me which by the way hasnt to date been determined with my evidence for unmet demand for WAVS, THE HALCROW FOX study merely aggreed there was no evidence to resist my application.



So if there was all that 'latent demand' demonstrated by PH plying for hire then surely that was taken into account as in the Castle Point case?

If they haven't determined your application then surely you can take action to get them to determine them??

On the WAVs point, I suspect that LAs are not legally bound to consider any unmet WAV demand, since the legislation only deals with unmet demand for HCs per se. So any consideration of WAVs in a report is likely to be non-legally binding, as in Brighton.

Dusty


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 5:28 pm 
Dusty Bin wrote:
Yes, the council are not bound by any independent survey report if they don't want to limit numbers, but if they do want to limit numbers then they are legally bound by the report's recommendations.

So what happened to the people responsible in Gateshead then Mick???

Dusty :?


Dusty, I am sorry but you are wrong! the council are not bound to have a report or comply to it! they are not bound to limit by number or severe restrictions, its all in your mind

I can name you cities that have limits and no study!

you give them far more importance that they have!

Wharfie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 5:38 pm 
Dusty Bin wrote:
Wharfie wrote:
the only unmet demand these turkeys found with private hire plying all around them was for WAVS

AS they were sitting on an application from me which by the way hasnt to date been determined with my evidence for unmet demand for WAVS, THE HALCROW FOX study merely aggreed there was no evidence to resist my application.



So if there was all that 'latent demand' demonstrated by PH plying for hire then surely that was taken into account as in the Castle Point case?

If they haven't determined your application then surely you can take action to get them to determine them??

On the WAVs point, I suspect that LAs are not legally bound to consider any unmet WAV demand, since the legislation only deals with unmet demand for HCs per se. So any consideration of WAVs in a report is likely to be non-legally binding, as in Brighton.

Dusty



Well you oversimplyfy the case re Wavs, cos now councils have to put plans for taxis and private hire in transport plans, and transport plans must
cater for improved access for disabled

as for them not determining them yes I could however the castlepoint case drew my attention to rights i thought i did not have, and so its an acedemic argument, but the council are amazed I have not challenged them,

so yes Wavs not in the report but in other ways are part and parcel of what a council should be doing, I have thought all along that under dda all new taxis should be wavs

Wharfie


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 6:47 pm 
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Wharfie wrote:
Dusty, I am sorry but you are wrong! the council are not bound to have a report or comply to it! they are not bound to limit by number or severe restrictions, its all in your mind

I can name you cities that have limits and no study!

you give them far more importance that they have!

Wharfie


Yes Wharfy, I think that was what I said??

To summarise:

- No LA needs to limit;

- If they do then (legally) they must survey. But that's the legal requirement for restricting numbers, I'm not saying that all actually actually do survey, but that's presumably because they've never been challenged.

As I said yesterday(?) if no one challenges the LA, perhaps because they don't know the score or they haven't taken legal advice, then the LA can get away with it.

Let's face it many LAs have rules, regs and practices that probably wouldn't survive a legal challenge, but for whatever reason no one does so.

For example, I believe some LAs set an out-of-area tariff, but no one is going to challenge that, although it would presumably not survive a challenge.

Dusty


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 7:05 pm 
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Wharfie wrote:

Well you oversimplyfy the case re Wavs, cos now councils have to put plans for taxis and private hire in transport plans, and transport plans must
cater for improved access for disabled

so yes Wavs not in the report but in other ways are part and parcel of what a council should be doing, I have thought all along that under dda all new taxis should be wavs

Wharfie


Yes Wharfy, as I said I doubt if there is any strict LEGAL requirement to provide WAVs, presumably if transport plans don't provide sufficient accessibility then there's nothing that the Govt or anyone else can do??

If and until the DDA is implemented then there is really only political pressure to increase accesss??

If the councils would do these things voluntarily then there would have been no need for the DDA??

Dusty


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 7:10 pm 
But I am saying they dont need to have independent surveys, they just have to prove there is no unmet demand. maybe thier own survey?

a sore that appears in circular 4/87 surrounds applications for uses as taxi busses where an authority would have to proove demand would not be forthcomming, as castlepoint states that you cannot treat these vehicles any different. so they can go on ranks too

my licensing officer went beserk when my application went in for these. he said "you can use licenses from the traffic commission" I said they were nothing to do with him. he fudged the issue by opening up in my zone.

Id love to live in Brighton, they would get the runarround!

Wharfie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 7:16 pm 
Dusty Bin wrote:
Wharfie wrote:

Well you oversimplyfy the case re Wavs, cos now councils have to put plans for taxis and private hire in transport plans, and transport plans must
cater for improved access for disabled

so yes Wavs not in the report but in other ways are part and parcel of what a council should be doing, I have thought all along that under dda all new taxis should be wavs

Wharfie


Yes Wharfy, as I said I doubt if there is any strict LEGAL requirement to provide WAVs, presumably if transport plans don't provide sufficient accessibility then there's nothing that the Govt or anyone else can do??

If and until the DDA is implemented then there is really only political pressure to increase accesss??

If the councils would do these things voluntarily then there would have been no need for the DDA??

Dusty


remember DDA is not about taxis and private hire its about access to all buildings and buisnnesses and equal access to services.

sometimes councils and others need guidance on these things, I remember our council had all the right policies but when an application came to put a ramp outside our listed building post office it was refused on the grounds that it would detract from the character.

dda concentrated thier minds.

Wharfie


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