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The Captains definition of two trades is technically correct. One is meant to serve the Public hire sector, with the other serving the private hire sector. Although both sectors acomplish the same purpose, for example transporting passengers from A to B they do technically operate on different legal requirements.

In the strict interpretation of the term Taxi, a vehicle that is not licenced to ply for hire on a public carriageway is not a Taxi. However when we phone for a private hire vehicle we normally always refer to the vehicle as a Cab or Taxi. I don't know anyone who phones up for a private hire vehicle and says to the operator "will you please send me a private hire vehicle.

In this locality, you will find that most Hackney Carriage drivers do not look on the private hire sector as being Taxi's. I suspect the views expressed here in Manchester are the same sentiments as those expressed down in London. Having said that, It's alright having a vehicle that is portrayed as a Taxi, but here in Manchester you have a great many people driving cabs who can't realisticaly be called Taxi drivers, their knowledge of the area is non existance.

There is only one body to blame for allowing poor standards in knolwedge tests and that is the body who is invested with the power to regulate Taxis in their area, in most cases that body is the the local council.

I think a line has to be drawn under the guidance and assistance an authority can give to an aplicant when taking the knowledge test. Those guidlines here in Manchester were relaxed over 15 years ago to make it easier for ethnic minorities to become Hackney carriage drivers.

The extention of the policy of relaxing standards will be further enlightened after the first of May 2004 when the eight Eastern European countries and two Mediteranean countries join the EU. If Total deregulation comes about the maintaining of high knowledge standards should be a priority, or will it?

Best Wishes

Jonh Davies
Manchester.

I agree that standards need to be improved. Our Council are considering Training Programmes which they intend to include in between passing the locality test and recieving a licence.

As much as I agree that this would be a positive step (the first one ever) it must be organised completely independantly of the trade when the moduals have been agreed. I say this because I'm concerned that the larger P/H operators will look to "provide" the courses and therefore cherry pick all new applicants. At least thats whats happening here.

So what will go into each modual, will these be written or oral, I believe that it should be a mixture of both. Whatever happens the standard of new licensee's should be far greater than the current influx, most of whom drive a WAV but don't even know how to use the ramps or secure a wheelchair.

Lastly should the whole process include P/H drivers. If we increase the standards for entry to the H/C trade surely to remain fair we have to allow them to work in what would become an associated trade. Is it not as decriminative to not allow someone into the trade because they failed a test as it is with the current financial restriction, even if they are deemed to be a fit and proper person. Also if a person gains a qualification relevant to the job they are doing shouldn't they demand a higher rate of pay, yet another thing not considered nor mentioned within the OFT report.

B. Lucky

I think the idea of modules is a sound one.

This gives prospective drivers something to aim at, and shouldn't put them off by having a huge amount to learn and do.

If they can be tested one bit at a time, instead of doing it all at the end, then standards could be improved without scaring off too many applicants.

Alex

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The whole point of the exercise is to have proerly trained people behind the wheel, so new applicants would have to complete all moduals before being given a licence.

Existing licensee's could be given a timescale to complete all moduals.

B. Lucky

John - Thanks for the response.

However I tend to feel that your viewpoint is based more on the drawbridge brigade. Those who are in and want it to be tough for others to follow.

I hear all these protestations from the Hackney brigade about two industries. But tell me, how do you refer to a Hackney carriage taking a booking over radio from an office?

I regard that as a 'Private Hire'.

You state that 'standards were lowered to 'make it easier for the ethnic minorities to enter the trade'. That is one hell of an accusation. Perhaps it was actually the council deciding that the barriers were too restrictive and taking actions to allow the trade to meet demand.

As I have said before, if you are right that there are two trades in anything but legal jargon, then I would expect all Hacks to have no radios, take no phone work, just work off ranks. Because that is where they were before the emergence of PH's.

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A member of the Hire or Reward Industry

Sorry TOM but I don't agree with any of the above.

Are you claiming that ALL pre-booked work is P/H work, or are you saying that if a H/C takes a job off his phone that constitutes P/H work.

You see terminology is being abused here.

In order to argue these points I think you need to clarify what your saying. H/C have always carried out pre-booked work, since the very conception of charging someone to be carried in a vehicle/carriage. So to state that all the H/C were ONLY at the ranks before the emergence of P/H is not entirely true.

The laws and legislation allow H/C to carry ANYONE who requires their services within their licensing borough.

The laws and legislation ONLY allow P/H to carry people who have made a booking through a Licensed P/H operator licenced in the same borough.

To, suggest anything else, or any further implications would be hypocracy.

B. Lucky

be carefull, there is a difference between new applicants and renewals.

with renewals you must give a licence unless there has been a change in fitness of character.

a court will not understand all things being equal why a driver is fit to drive today but not tommorow.

existing drivers must be given grandfather rights.

I like the one about cherry picking the best, Mick
they have never cherry picked you?

Tom,
b4 the emergence of private hire radios and telephones did not exist, neither did motorised vehicles

learn history before you pontificate

Well I'm claiming it is.

All phone work is private hire work. The fact that at times it is allocated to HC vehicles is by the by.

Nothing illegal about it, nothing immoral about it, but it is PH work.

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IDFIMH

I've never had a drawbridge mentality as you put it, on the contrary I'm all for inovation and democracy but when a passanger gets into a Cab It's not unreasonable for the passenger to expect that the driver knows where he is going. I can't offer an opinion on other Auhorities because I have no idea what level of standards they maintain. My comments were about a fall in standards not about making them unduly hard. I would like to see standards here in Manchester back at the level they were before the council was pressurised into lowering them.


"Protestations is your word not mine" It's not a case of protestations its a fact of how one side of the trade views another. None of us can alter the way a person sees himself with regard to someone else. The most vehement and outspoken members of the Taxi trade with regard to the "them and us" syndrome are the London Cabbies. Go and park your private hire vehicle next to a London Cabbie and tell him your in the same Trade, I can imagine what he will say.

There is a dividing line between the way the two components of the Cab trade do business. It is understandable why you wish to promote the fact that both sides basicaly serve the same purpose, that is probably true to a certain extent but even you must be able to distinguish the differences that set the two trades apart.

It's true to say that In most Authorities there is probably no function that a Hackney carriage vehicle performs, that a private hire vehicle cannot do.

That brings us back to the vexed question of the legal framework surrounding the two elements of the Taxi trade. Take away the legal framework and you have a "one size fits all". Simple isn't it?


The council were pressurised by a number of outside elements to lower the standards so that ethnic minorities could pass the knowledge test. The same knowledge test had been in place for years, there was no need to lower standards.

You may find hard it to believe that applicants who couldn't put one coherent sentence of the english language together were passing the knowledge test. You may also find it hard to believe that applicants were allowed to take an A to Z into the examination room and use it as a reference. That practice has since stopped.

Either you set standards for the public or you don't but if you do? make achieving those standards the same for everyone.


I said the Captain was technically right in observing that there was a distinction between the way the two sides of the trade operate. It was you who implied there wasn't a distinction. I pointed out that the interpretation in legal terms identifies a Taxi as a vehicle that is licenced to ply for public hire. Therein lies the distinction hence the dividing line between the two trades. It's not me that is arguing the point about the distinction of the Taxi trade I merely pointed out the difference in legal terms.

Best wishes

John Davies.
Manchester.

techinically private hire did not exist prior to the 1976 act, if this is true, hack's had radios and that fitted before private hire.

The fact of the matter is that private hire have moved the game on and left the hackneys standing in many areas, and they are the ones providing a service to many people hackneys arn't interested in.

Regards

CC

Oh dear. Let me pontificate some more.

Mick yes I am saying that.

If the two 'trades' perform the same function e.g. taking a request for a journey over the telephone, dispatching a vehicle and charging for the service I say that they are THE SAME.

You can order a hackney by walking up to a rank and requesting the driver takes you somewhere.

You can order a Private Hire by walking to an office (a virtual rank) and requesting - through a third party- that a driver takes you somewhere.

The only variation is a Hackney can be flagged down on the street.

John, I accept that the rules governing the 'two trades' in some councils are widely differentiated. There are equally a large number of councils where the rules are practically identical.

London is interesting. You try getting a Hackney in Chingford? despite the fact that 25% of the population are hackney drivers

In london the differentation between the two sides of industry is vast. That is because the Hacks have done EVERYTHING in their powers to block the legitimasation of the Private Hire Trade. They were the ones who insisted that London was exempt from the Misc Prov Act.

At the end of the day we all carry passengers from A 2 B for a single fare. Whilst that remains the case we are in the same trade.

Do you believe scheduled airlines and charter airlines are in a different industries? Because that would be easier to argue than Hackney/Private Hire.

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A member of the Hire or Reward Industry

The taxi operators want to lower the standards in my area.
They want to do the knowledsge tests themselves.
How about that one then?
When the unions asked for the DSA test. Or they agreed with the council over it. The taxi operators went mad.
All they want is more drivers lining there pockets.
Do they care about drivers? Do they.............

And because the HC trade is (in places) highly inflexible, this has led to the massive growth in the PH sector. Especially in restricted areas.

Now if the HC trade was (in places) highly flexible, then I very much doubt the PH trade would be the force that the HC trade has allowed it to be.

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IDFIMH

They are probably faced with the same reality as every taxi office I know;

A chronic shortage of drivers

My office is like every other in the country at this moment with phones ringing unanswered and jobs being declined.

I would, if we suffered one, want to conduct my own knowledge tests.

I also don't think DSA is particularly beneficial. We employ our own driver training guy and anyone can drive well enough to pass an assessment.

Drivers line my pockets, yes, But I line theirs!

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A member of the Hire or Reward Industry