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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:28 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
The way I read the act is that a booking must be taken by a licensed operator. It doesn't say it must be via their office.

So I take the view that a booking can be taken by a licensed operator in his vehicle.


Surely that depends on the Operator's Conditions of Licence. Usually the Operator's Licence will have an address on it & the attached conditions of licence will state that the business must be conducted from the address on the Operator's Licence.

Otherwise, operators could operate from any building, car, mobile caravan etc within the licensed area & distribute the work over the dispatch system.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:30 pm 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
Sussex wrote:
The way I read the act is that a booking must be taken by a licensed operator. It doesn't say it must be via their office.

So I take the view that a booking can be taken by a licensed operator in his vehicle.


Surely that depends on the Operator's Conditions of Licence. Usually the Operator's Licence will have an address on it & the attached conditions of licence will state that the business must be conducted from the address on the Operator's Licence.

But any local bylaws come secondary to statute law. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:40 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
But any local bylaws come secondary to statute law. :wink:


Agreed!

Except, bye-laws do not govern Private Hire. they are governed by Conditions of Licence, as in the 1976 Act.

Hackney Carriage drivers though, can only be governed or have conditions set through bye-laws.

We have just had our bye-laws re-introduced in Brum on 26th June this year, after a 32 year cock-up by the council. And they were not the only ones.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:18 am 
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Sussex wrote:
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On private land, away from the public highway, hackneys can ply outside of their licensing district i.e Birmingham Airport judgement.


I hope that is not entirely correct, I thought that in the Birmingham case they got away with it because they were not "projecting themselves" towards the general public, only at persons in the airport?.

Surely this would mean that a hack could find a random piece of private land (eg a railway car park, tescos, my front garden (?) etc) and ply there when out of district then - that cant be right surely??

My understanding is that since Section 167. Of the CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND PUBLIC ORDER ACT, 1994 was enacted then it is now "an offense, in a public place, to solicit persons to hire vehicles to carry them as passengers.", if improperly licensed to do so - not, notice, private land anymore - just a "public place".

In any event, what can be understood by the interpretation of being: "away from the public highway"??

A foot?, twenty yards?, visible when standing on a step ladder??:mrgreen:

In our local case, you turn of the highway and you are immediately on a 50yrd drive, leading to the club, along which all and sundry "rank" - is this "away from the public highway"?? (sometimes there are so many "cabs" they also wait on the road to get in!)

This is absolutely crucial to us - any comments or thoughts??


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:11 pm 
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Doc G wrote:
I hope that is not entirely correct, I thought that in the Birmingham case they got away with it because they were not "projecting themselves" towards the general public, only at persons in the airport?.


I went down to the High Court in the Strand in 1988 for the two days when this case was heard. At the time I was involved with the Birmingham Association & I can tell you that we were pooing ourselves, because we had only collected £11,700 for the fighting fund & if we had lost the estimated cost were £30,000.

The main two reasons for allowing the appeal, as I recall & I have not re-read the case were;

That Birmingham Airport had it own bye-laws in place.

And that a barrier to close off the airport near the entrance was in place, albeit used on one day of the year; Christmas Day.

The bye-laws (& to a lesser extent the barrier) made the road, Airport Way, where the rank is, a private road, & therefore not a 'street' under the 1847 Act.

I also seem to remember that the bye-laws also gave power to the airport authorities to remove people, vehicles etc from their land, which gave further weight to the argument that Airport Way was a private road & not a 'street' under the 1847 Act.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:33 pm 
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.......... when the 1976 Act came into power it was not adopted by every council in this land............. so if a council has not adopted a certain act it cannot enforce it. Liverpool airport is on private land but because Liverpool adopted the Merseyside Act it has authority regarding licensing over the airport and the same with Merseyside Docks that fall within their area.......... Sefton adopted the Merseyside Act and that gives them authority over Liverpool docks in the Sefton area . so private land can come under the authority of the councils licensing

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:41 pm 
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Doc G wrote:
Surely this would mean that a hack could find a random piece of private land (eg a railway car park, tescos, my front garden (?) etc) and ply there when out of district then - that cant be right surely??

It all depends on where the customers are drawn from.

In the Birmingham airport case the punters where drawn from the airport, and the barrier stopped punters from the road (public place) getting to the taxis at the airport rank.

Clearly this didn't apply at Eastbourne cos the 'rank' was within yards of a main public road.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:44 pm 
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Doc G wrote:
In any event, what can be understood by the interpretation of being: "away from the public highway"??

A foot?, twenty yards?, visible when standing on a step ladder??:mrgreen:

I would say if the taxi rank can be seen from the main road (public place) and customers can be lured to those taxis, then I think that can be classed as 'plying' and 'touting'.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:45 pm 
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Doc G wrote:
In our local case, you turn of the highway and you are immediately on a 50yrd drive, leading to the club, along which all and sundry "rank" - is this "away from the public highway"?? (sometimes there are so many "cabs" they also wait on the road to get in!)

This is absolutely crucial to us - any comments or thoughts??

Are they all taxis?

If they are then you might well have to wait to see what comes out of the Newcastle-v-Berwick judicial review in September.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:40 pm 
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MR T wrote:
.......... when the 1976 Act came into power it was not adopted by every council in this land............. so if a council has not adopted a certain act it cannot enforce it. Liverpool airport is on private land but because Liverpool adopted the Merseyside Act it has authority regarding licensing over the airport and the same with Merseyside Docks that fall within their area.......... Sefton adopted the Merseyside Act and that gives them authority over Liverpool docks in the Sefton area . so private land can come under the authority of the councils licensing


I wonder what might happen then if there were to be in the future a Solihull Act?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:51 pm 
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I think all you guys quoting from the Birmingham Airport case should read it again.

Regards

JD

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:04 pm 
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JD Said:
Quote:
I think all you guys quoting from the Birmingham Airport case should read it again.


Very respectfully gents, please elaborate further on this private land issue, as I am officially going off my rocker trying to understand this.

Does it matter, in our local case, that the club is out in the "sticks", and is unlikely to "attract passing trade"?

Does it matter that the club has laid a bus stop for their own scheduled route on site?

That there are other commercial buildings that use the car park during the day, and the car park is used for unrestricted vehicular traffic all the time?

Incidentally, to the best of my knowledge, is never "gated" in anyway, and (I guess obviously) not subject to their own byelaw's.

I am certain that our illustrious council is about to come up with a really wacky way of dealing with these issues, and our fighting fund is at about £2.73 at the last count!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:20 pm 
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Doc G wrote:
JD Said:
Quote:
I think all you guys quoting from the Birmingham Airport case should read it again.


Very respectfully gents, please elaborate further on this private land issue, as I am officially going off my rocker trying to understand this.

Does it matter, in our local case, that the club is out in the "sticks", and is unlikely to "attract passing trade"?


________________________________________________________________
DocG


what about attracting some rough trade?.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:35 pm 
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Just for JD.. :lol: :lol:
HOUGHTS ON THE DEFINITION OF “STREET” AND “PUBLIC PLACE”

STATUTORY PROVISIONS

1) The Town Police Clauses Acts 1847-1889 are construed as one with the Public Health Act
1875 (Section 171 of the PHA 1875);

2) Section 4 of the PHA 1875 [the definitions section] defines “street” as any highway… and
public bridge… and any road, lane, footway, square, court, alley or passage whether a
thoroughfare or not:

3) Section 4 of the PHA 1875 [the definitions section] defines “road” as a road to which the
public have access and which has houses at either side of it;

4) Section 4 of the PHA 1875 [the definitions section] defines “house” as including
buildings where persons are employed;

5) Section 3 of the Town Police Clauses Act 1847 defines “street” as extending to and
include ANY road, square court alley or thoroughfare, or public passage within the limits
of the special Act.

6) Section 192 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 [the interpretation section] defines “road” as in
relation to England and Wales means any highway and any other road to which the public
has access and includes bridges over which a road passes.

7) Section 192 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 [the interpretation section] defines both
“bridleway” and “footpath” by reference to a public right of way albeit a restricted one.

8) Section 167 of the Criminal Justice & Public Order Act 1994 [Touting for taxis and hire
cars] defines a “public place” as anywhere to which the public have access whether by
payment or not.

9) Statutory Instrument 2000, No. 726 is as follows:

Council Directive 72/166/EEC (OJ No. L103, 2.5.72, p. 2), as modified by Council Directives
84/5/EEC (OJ No. L8, 11.1.84, p. 17) and 90/232/EEC (OJ No. L129, 19.5.90, p. 33) requires a
Member State to take all appropriate measures to ensure that civil liability in respect of
the use of motor vehicles normally based in its territory is covered by insurance.

Under section 143 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 ("the 1988 Act") it is an offence to use, or to cause or
permit someone to use, a motor vehicle on a road unless its use is covered by an appropriate policy of
insurance or security ("the insurance requirement"). "Road" is defined in section 192(1) of the
1988 Act, in relation to England and Wales, as any highway or other road to which the
public has access and, in relation to Scotland, as any road or other way to which the public has
access. In the case of Cutter v. Eagle Star Insurance Company Ltd, [1998] 4 All ER 417, it was held
by the House of Lords that the expression did not include a car park or similar public place.

For the purpose of complying with the directives these Regulations amend the 1988 Act first by
extending the insurance requirement to the use of vehicles in public places other than roads and,
secondly, by making provision for the reporting of accidents and the production of insurance

Hackney Carriages Page 1

30/11/2004


documents where an accident occurs in a public place.

PERTINENT CASE LAW

1) Young v Scampion [1988] RTR 95 and references contained therein;
2) Strettle v Knowsley MBC
3) Cutter v. Eagle Star Insurance Company Ltd, [1998] 4 All ER 417;


SKELETON POINTS TO CONSIDER

1) The purpose of the Act-to protect the public at large by licensing controls;
2) The enforcement authority is the Council for the District;
3) The date of the Young decision and the changes brought about by the new requirements to


give EEC legislation effect within national law;
4) The latest parliamentary definition of “road” and;
5) The mischief rule of statutory interpretation.

ARGUMENT FOR CONSIDERATION

1) The RTA 1988, S192 defines “road” without reference to public right of access [unlike

the definition of bridleway and footpath] but by reference merely to public access.
2) The TPCA 1847, S3 defines “street” as including ANY ROAD……;
3) The PHA 1875, S4 defines “street” again as ANY ROAD……;
4) SI 2000, 726 gives effect to the requirement on all member states to ensure civil liability

is covered by insurance whether on a road or other public place.

In Young and Scampion [107B-E] the learned judges cited Curtis v Embery [1872] as
requiring proof that the street must be a public street. It should be noted Curtis v Embery
concerned a railway property case and the position on that type of site was specifically
amended by S76 of the Public Health Act 1925. It is my contention that that case can be
distinguished from the Strettle v Knowsley MBC decision of recent date.

In Strettle the carriage was on a road to which the public were permitted access albeit that this
was by licence and not a right. I am informed that, in the absence of obstruction or
misbehaviour, no traveller along the road would be prevented from going wherever he wished
on the roads within the hospital grounds by anyone at any hour of the day or night. No
barriers are installed on the roads. I am informed it is possible for persons to use the grounds
as a short cut without ever attending any part of the hospital and so I submit it falls both
within the definition of thoroughfare and also road.

As an aside until 1966 the House of Lords held that it could not over rule its previous
decisions. The Practice Direction of that year changed that to allow for changes in
circumstances in Society and practice. It now can in exceptional circumstances over rule itself
and has done so. The law of 100 years ago is open to challenge.

CONCLUSION

In 2001 in reality any person may enter the grounds of Whiston Hospital with a car and drive
upon those roads. The law now requires such use to be covered by insurance. Since 1988 the

Hackney Carriages Page 2

30/11/2004


main definition of a road is “a place to which the public have access” and not a place to
which the public have a right of access.

Street is defined in the 1847 and 1875 Acts as a total of 15 types of place of which only 2 are
connected to the word “public”. The learned judges in Young, I respectfully submit, stand to
be over ruled or at least distinguished.

Any vehicle used or standing for hire in a street, where the public may be found, [privately
owned or otherwise] should therefore fall within the S45 TPCA 1847 offence. I submit that
the decision of the Crown Court, if challenged, could be over turned and distinguished from
Young & Scampion in the circumstances of the Strettle case

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:56 pm 
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MR T wrote:
Just for JD.. :lol: :lol:


Why the, "just for JD" remark? Don't you think JD and everyone else on this forum knows the definition of a street and public place. We've only been through it about 50 times in the past.

By the way, that's about the third time you've posted that definition after I first posted the meaning over three years ago.

Regards

JD

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