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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:54 pm 
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bloodnock wrote:
Ok...final draft wi some bits added...To much maybe???

Dear MP,

Re: Volunteer/Charity cars

I'm writing to you out of desperation and concern in relation to the effect the so-called Volunteer/Charity car organisations are having on my business as a licensed Private Hire driver.

Although these types of organisations are now popping up all over the country, where they stay within the law they are a valuable service to the community run by people with only good intentions. However it is becoming apparent that an increasingly large section of these firms are now encroaching, possibly even illegally, on the legitimate Taxi and Private Hire trade.

Current law allows the Volunteer/Charity cars organisations to seek payment that covers their running costs. The Inland Revenue have suggested a fee of 40p a mile will meet those running costs.

Regrettably, this is now being abused by many firms claiming to be Volunteer/Charity cars. Typically they charge a registration fee of say £5.00 and on top of that they typically charge 40p per person per mile. It’s the 40 pence per person that is one of things I strongly object to.

Taxis and Private hire tend to charge approximately 70 pence per mile regardless of whether they carry one person or 4 in a licensed 4 seat vehicle it will still be 70 pence per mile, this is where the Volunteers are I fear abusing the rules…they are charging 40 pence per person per mile which means that if they are carrying 4 people then they are receiving £1.60 per mile from their passenger. These Discrepancy’s appear even more unfair if they use an 6 or 8 MPV where technically they can make up to £3.20 per Mile where as the Likes of myself as a Private hire operator or a Taxi operator would be charging just around £1.00 per mile for that same journey irrespective of the number of passengers we carry on board.

By having these 'fares' these Volunteers firms are in fact acting as Taxi or Private Hire vehicles without the required and expensive Private Hire or Taxi licenses and without the Incredibly expensive Taxi or Private hire vehicle insurance with its built in Public liability cover.

What makes this matter still harder to accept is that the services they provide and the groups that they are targeting are too broad. Also the range of the reasons for requiring a volunteer driver is far too broad to; all this virtually gives the volunteers access to anyone that would normally need a taxi. the runs they offer now have strayed away from the true needs of the elderly, infirm, the disabled and the truly needy for visits to the doctors or the hospital or dentist or to visit friends or family that may be in hospital.

I have taken these examples from the WRVS/Getabout scheme of who may qualify and what kind of journeys they may expect. Though there are many other volunteer groups who offer a similar range of services

Sadly around 90% of the people in my operational catchment area come under at least one of the following qualifying categories or criteria, this is really hitting me and others in my situation very badly.

Who qualifies!
You can get getabout if you meet any of the following criteria....
You are an older person
You consider yourself to have a disability
You live in a rurally isolated area
You are a young person (if you are under 16 you must be accompanied by a responsible adult?
You are a parent or carer of small children who are under the age of 16
You cannot afford other transport options
You are otherwise unable to access public or private transport

What for
You can use the Services to do anything that involves transport. for example:
Visit your

Doctor, Hospital Dentist, Chiropodist, Optician
Family and Friends, Local organisation and services
Community centres, Physiotherapist

OR

To have a Day out ,Go Shopping, Have Groups social outing, Groups Taking part
in meetings.

The unfair part is that as they are supposedly non profit making concerns, yet they actually take in a lot of money in the form of payment, this money covers a lot more than the Individual driver is probably getting paid, otherwise they stops becoming volunteers and enter the realm of paid driver and who should then be subject to employee rules and minimum wage etc, so anything more than 40 pence per mile and both the driver and their umbrella group must be breaking the law as a volunteer service.

Should the group organising these volunteer drivers be charging 40pence per customer then they are also breaking the law simply because they are making a profit out of any journey where they carry more than one customer at a time and also because they are not entitled be charging individual fares.

It is easy for the groups management to say they are a “Non profit” operation simply by investing any money which may otherwise be deemed to be profit into new equipment or vehicles as well as paying themselves a wage as big as they like. I guess any Private hire or Taxi driver could do exactly the same, instead of declaring a profit for the Taxman we could simply do as the Volunteer groups do and explain that money away as wages and equipment so that on paper we would appear to be “non profit” making also. By doing that we could also get around the need for Licences, special insurances and special vehicle types etc. it is most unfair and to some extent unethical to say they operate charitably but if their customers see the bigger picture they would see that their 40p per mile might become only 20p per mile if they used a shared taxi or private hire vehicle…sadly they are being conned.

If these firms are allowed to grow at the rate they are, then many in the legitimate Taxi and Private Hire trades will be forced out of work. I have to ask you why I should have to go through all the checks and balances one is required to meet to be licensed, and then use a vehicle under a certain age which needs to be correctly insured and local authority checked when anyone with an old banger can earn a living out of taxiing the vulnerable around.

While I do whole heartedly agree on a certain amount of voluntary work in order to help those truly in need of such services…just as it used to be, But now it has got completely out of hand and they the Volunteer groups have hijacked the work of individual volunteer drivers and turned into a big business that generates an income for its organisers and its drivers who as volunteers are not required to be Local authority licensed on what appears to be a lowly 40p per mile fee….this fee of course is absolute rubbish as its 40 pence per passenger not 40 per vehicle mile. Its ridiculous that I’m expected to make a Living from charging 70 pence per mile with all the extra overheads running a Private hire business involves and at the same time these Volunteers can earn up to £1.60 per mile without any extra costs other than a small amount of fuel.


I would be very grateful if you could ask the Minister concerned why the government allow such Schemes, and what I'm to do when I have lost all my customers to these unchecked, unlicensed so-called community services.


I have taken out a few words that I thought were not needed and changed a couple of bits (highlighted in red) See what you think now. :wink:

_________________
Grandad,


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:15 pm 
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grandad wrote:
bloodnock wrote:
Ok...final draft wi some bits added...To much maybe???

Dear MP,

Re: Volunteer/Charity cars

I'm writing to you out of desperation and concern in relation to the effect the so-called Volunteer/Charity car organisations are having on my business as a licensed Private Hire driver.

Although these types of organisations are now popping up all over the country, where they stay within the law they are a valuable service to the community run by people with only good intentions. However it is becoming apparent that an increasingly large section of these firms are now encroaching, possibly even illegally, on the legitimate Taxi and Private Hire trade.

Current law allows the Volunteer/Charity cars organisations to seek payment that covers their running costs. The Inland Revenue have suggested a fee of 40p a mile will meet those running costs.

Regrettably, this is now being abused by many firms claiming to be Volunteer/Charity cars. Typically they charge a registration fee of say £5.00 and on top of that they typically charge 40p per person per mile. It’s the 40 pence per person that is one of things I strongly object to.

Taxis and Private hire tend to charge approximately 70 pence per mile regardless of whether they carry one person or 4 in a licensed 4 seat vehicle it will still be 70 pence per mile, this is where the Volunteers are I fear abusing the rules…they are charging 40 pence per person per mile which means that if they are carrying 4 people then they are receiving £1.60 per mile from their passenger. These Discrepancy’s appear even more unfair if they use an 6 or 8 MPV where technically they can make up to £3.20 per Mile where as the Likes of myself as a Private hire operator or a Taxi operator would be charging just around £1.00 per mile for that same journey irrespective of the number of passengers we carry on board.

By having these 'fares' these Volunteers firms are in fact acting as Taxi or Private Hire vehicles without the required and expensive Private Hire or Taxi licenses and without the Incredibly expensive Taxi or Private hire vehicle insurance with its built in Public liability cover.

What makes this matter still harder to accept is that the services they provide and the groups that they are targeting are too broad. Also the range of the reasons for requiring a volunteer driver is far too broad to; all this virtually gives the volunteers access to anyone that would normally need a taxi. the runs they offer now have strayed away from the true needs of the elderly, infirm, the disabled and the truly needy for visits to the doctors or the hospital or dentist or to visit friends or family that may be in hospital.

I have taken these examples from the WRVS/Getabout scheme of who may qualify and what kind of journeys they may expect. Though there are many other volunteer groups who offer a similar range of services

Sadly around 90% of the people in my operational catchment area come under at least one of the following qualifying categories or criteria, this is really hitting me and others in my situation very badly.

Who qualifies!
You can get getabout if you meet any of the following criteria....
You are an older person
You consider yourself to have a disability
You live in a rurally isolated area
You are a young person (if you are under 16 you must be accompanied by a responsible adult?
You are a parent or carer of small children who are under the age of 16
You cannot afford other transport options
You are otherwise unable to access public or private transport

What for
You can use the Services to do anything that involves transport. for example:
Visit your

Doctor, Hospital Dentist, Chiropodist, Optician
Family and Friends, Local organisation and services
Community centres, Physiotherapist

OR

To have a Day out ,Go Shopping, Have Groups social outing, Groups Taking part
in meetings.

The unfair part is that as they are supposedly non profit making concerns, yet they actually take in a lot of money in the form of payment, this money covers a lot more than the Individual driver is probably getting paid, otherwise they stops becoming volunteers and enter the realm of paid driver and who should then be subject to employee rules and minimum wage etc, so anything more than 40 pence per mile and both the driver and their umbrella group must be breaking the law as a volunteer service.

Should the group organising these volunteer drivers be charging 40pence per customer then they are also breaking the law simply because they are making a profit out of any journey where they carry more than one customer at a time and also because they are not entitled be charging individual fares.

It is easy for the groups management to say they are a “Non profit” operation simply by investing any money which may otherwise be deemed to be profit into new equipment or vehicles as well as paying themselves a wage as big as they like. I guess any Private hire or Taxi driver could do exactly the same, instead of declaring a profit for the Taxman we could simply do as the Volunteer groups do and explain that money away as wages and equipment so that on paper we would appear to be “non profit” making also. By doing that we could also get around the need for Licences, special insurances and special vehicle types etc. it is most unfair and to some extent unethical to say they operate charitably but if their customers see the bigger picture they would see that their 40p per mile might become only 20p per mile if they used a shared taxi or private hire vehicle…sadly they are being conned.

If these firms are allowed to grow at the rate they are, then many in the legitimate Taxi and Private Hire trades will be forced out of work. I have to ask you why I should have to go through all the checks and balances one is required to meet to be licensed, and then use a vehicle under a certain age which needs to be correctly insured and local authority checked when anyone with an old banger can earn a living out of taxiing the vulnerable around.

While I do whole heartedly agree on a certain amount of voluntary work in order to help those truly in need of such services…just as it used to be, But now it has got completely out of hand and they the Volunteer groups have hijacked the work of individual volunteer drivers and turned into a big business that generates an income for its organisers and its drivers who as volunteers are not required to be Local authority licensed on what appears to be a lowly 40p per mile fee….this fee of course is absolute rubbish as its 40 pence per passenger not 40 per vehicle mile. Its ridiculous that I’m expected to make a Living from charging 70 pence per mile with all the extra overheads running a Private hire business involves and at the same time these Volunteers can earn up to £1.60 per mile without any extra costs other than a small amount of fuel.


I would be very grateful if you could ask the Minister concerned why the government allow such Schemes, and what I'm to do when I have lost all my customers to these unchecked, unlicensed so-called community services.


I have taken out a few words that I thought were not needed and changed a couple of bits (highlighted in red) See what you think now. :wink:



thanks grandad....Looks great to me, ill dig out the addresses of my various MPs, MSPs and MEP and send them all a copy.

then I'l never hear another thing about it.. :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:03 am 
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Posts: 10
I think this is an absolute vital thread and badly in need of addressing.

Hospital Voulenteer drivers at my local hospital run it as a business working full time as a living.

We have a firm in Harrow which bids for commercial council contracts under the disguise of being a volunteer car service so they can use unplated vehicles without hire and reward insurance. A blatent scam. Most of their drivers are on benefits and are told their "expenses" don't need to be declared.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:10 am 
This has got to be looked into further, there's loads of them round our way working out of the local Hospital, they all have brand new cars and are un plated.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:39 am 
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Musher wrote:
I think this is an absolute vital thread and badly in need of addressing.

Hospital Voulenteer drivers at my local hospital run it as a business working full time as a living.

We have a firm in Harrow which bids for commercial council contracts under the disguise of being a volunteer car service so they can use unplated vehicles without hire and reward insurance. A blatent scam. Most of their drivers are on benefits and are told their "expenses" don't need to be declared.


I agree...so called volunteers can be making more than you or I...but when people or LA's see those Magic words....Volunteer or Charity or Community transport they automatically think that they will be the cheaper option....Im fed up of seeing unbadged drivers ferrying people about in Vehicles that are benefitting from cheaper standard vehicle insurance...often the Vehicles are new and specially adapted with the assistance of grants and other handouts..all things that were denied to me when I tried to seek aid to make my Minibus more disabled friendly..

Its just so wrong...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:11 am 
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Location: 1066 Country
Musher wrote:
I think this is an absolute vital thread and badly in need of addressing.

Hospital Voulenteer drivers at my local hospital run it as a business working full time as a living.

I think there is work going on behind the scenes, and let's hope those efforts succeed in ridding the country of yet more unlicensed unchecked drivers and vehicles.

Especially when they are transporting vulnerable folks.

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IDFIMH


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:16 am 
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Location: 1066 Country
Musher wrote:
We have a firm in Harrow which bids for commercial council contracts under the disguise of being a volunteer car service so they can use unplated vehicles without hire and reward insurance. A blatent scam. Most of their drivers are on benefits and are told their "expenses" don't need to be declared.

Now that would be an interesting challenge for someone to take on. :-k

It's one thing for drivers to run at a so-called 'not for profit' 25p or 40p rate, but if someone was running a firm doing that, then IMO they are not running a service for 'not for profit' if they are taking a wage. :?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:22 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
Musher wrote:
We have a firm in Harrow which bids for commercial council contracts under the disguise of being a volunteer car service so they can use unplated vehicles without hire and reward insurance. A blatent scam. Most of their drivers are on benefits and are told their "expenses" don't need to be declared.

Now that would be an interesting challenge for someone to take on. :-k

It's one thing for drivers to run at a so-called 'not for profit' 25p or 40p rate, but if someone was running a firm doing that, then IMO they are not running a service for 'not for profit' if they are taking a wage. :?


How is the 40 ppm Divided...is it just the drivers that get it?

Do the organisers charge a fee on top?

Do the organisers supply the cars used?

Is it really that simple to register as a charity?

How can they afford such well equipped vehicles..often with Wheelchair lifts and specialised seating and still be able to pay a driver as well?

Id like some answers...I know there are big Charitys involved and some really worthy causes being helped, but a lot more are just jumping on the bandwagon with an aim to earn money.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:08 am 
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I don't know because I have never gone into it in depth but I believe the voluntary car scam at our local hospital charges only a little bit less than a minicab. I remember very clearly a passenger telling me once that that there wasn't much in it.
The point is though they are on the go all the time, in and out of the Hospital like a fiddlers elbow. Very little waiting around. And they double up or treble up. Does that mean they charge double or treble?


Perhaps the time is right to do a bit more digging


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:21 am 
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Sussex wrote:
Musher wrote:
We have a firm in Harrow which bids for commercial council contracts under the disguise of being a volunteer car service so they can use unplated vehicles without hire and reward insurance. A blatent scam. Most of their drivers are on benefits and are told their "expenses" don't need to be declared.

Now that would be an interesting challenge for someone to take on. :-k

It's one thing for drivers to run at a so-called 'not for profit' 25p or 40p rate, but if someone was running a firm doing that, then IMO they are not running a service for 'not for profit' if they are taking a wage. :?


I drove an undercover copper round one day about three years back looking at several companies including that one. I was asked to do it by my trade association.

He was interesting to talk to but said although it was obviously illegal the Police wouldn't get involved because it would also mean having to show that the Councils were in cahoots with the firm and that was not worth all the aggro and expense. There was a lot of evidence of collusion, grants had been given and the owner had (allegedly) made several donations to the local Labour Party in the past.
The Police wouldn't take on the Councils, they were only looking for easy targets and quick results. He said thats the way police work these days.

They were more interested in the unplated minibuses doing school jobs and I heard one of the firms got raided shortly after. Virtually all their buses had serious faults. I would like to think I had a little hand in that, shame it was only one firm, and not the worst.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:58 pm 
Musher wrote:
I don't know because I have never gone into it in depth but I believe the voluntary car scam at our local hospital charges only a little bit less than a minicab. I remember very clearly a passenger telling me once that that there wasn't much in it.
The point is though they are on the go all the time, in and out of the Hospital like a fiddlers elbow. Very little waiting around. And they double up or treble up. Does that mean they charge double or treble?


Perhaps the time is right to do a bit more digging


If they pick up 3 people in the same area they get paid X3 the same goes with the drop off's if they have 3 dropping in the same area it's X3 again, you can imagine they are getting a good screw for picking and dropping 3 off in the same area.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:47 pm 
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Nigel wrote:
Musher wrote:
I don't know because I have never gone into it in depth but I believe the voluntary car scam at our local hospital charges only a little bit less than a minicab. I remember very clearly a passenger telling me once that that there wasn't much in it.
The point is though they are on the go all the time, in and out of the Hospital like a fiddlers elbow. Very little waiting around. And they double up or treble up. Does that mean they charge double or treble?


Perhaps the time is right to do a bit more digging


If they pick up 3 people in the same area they get paid X3 the same goes with the drop off's if they have 3 dropping in the same area it's X3 again, you can imagine they are getting a good screw for picking and dropping 3 off in the same area.


I would guess that the people ordering the cars do not know that the cars are carrying more than one customer at a time. They will just be ordering transportation. The people provideing the transport will be allocating passengers to cars and chargeing for each passenger individually based on the distance that the car would have travelled for each passenger.
Incidently, do these company's, sorry volunteers charge just for the miles that they have passengers on board or do they also charge for the dead miles on return? Because if they charge the dead miles as well it is conceivable that they could be getting paid for say taking a passenger to their home and getting the return money as well, and then picking up the first passengers neighbour and getting the mileage for that as well.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:53 pm 
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Location: BRIGHTON & HOVE
This is an email I received from one of our sections in the GMB Southern Region.

Hi Mick,

I trust you are well.

Today, I attended the Surgery of Rht Hon Oliver Letwin MP. Dave was in attendance. We were there to ask, on behalf of our Member John, about the legality of using Volunteer drivers to transport members of the public on behalf of Somerset County Council under the Volunteer drivers scheme (Replacement for Hospital Car Service). Mr Letwin felt the best way to tackle the unfairness of the system, effectively, a discrimination against Licenced drivers and vehicles is to ask for clarity from the Government Dept responsible. Whilst present, Mr Letwin dictated a letter to the Secretary of State for Transport asking if his department had looked into the question of the validity of Social, Domestic & Pleasure Insurance with Business use, even though these Volunteer Drivers are being "Hired" for "Reward" by Local Authorities at the rate of 45p per mile, round trip. A copy of that letter and any reply will be forwarded to me in due course. I will send you copies as and when. Trust you are happy with our efforts.

Kindest regards,
Tim

_________________
Mick Hildreth (07814 032002)
GMB PDB P39 Southern Region Branch Secretary
mick.hildreth@gmbtaxis.org.uk
www.gmbpdb.org.uk


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:15 pm 
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More Sh*te from the ever present Cuckoo in the nest by virtue of the greedy Volunteer driver:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/article-1269323/Volunteer-drivers-hit-40p-cap-mileage.html


The part that states:

The 40p is not covering the cost any more. Anybody volunteering should not be out of pocket. It's unfair.'

Without organisations such as these, the NHS could be forced to pay for taxi transport, which the AA estimates could cost four times as much


Was a bit of a slur on the trade i thought...what? £1.60 per passenger mile!!! theyre truly taking the P*ISS...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:36 pm 
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when i was in one of these schemes, albeit with a plate+badge, it wasnt 40p per person, it was for the trip, but i dont recall having multiple passengers anyway, so i dont know that there would be many 4 x 40p's per mile on offer

the ring and ride sweeps up 15-20 passengers at a go, they hack me off more than volunteer drivers


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