Taxi Driver Online
http://www.taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/

Can a PH driver demand payment for illegal hire?
http://www.taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14081		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  jimbo [ Sun May 16, 2010 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Can a PH driver demand payment for illegal hire?
If a Private Hire driver picks up a passenger, and on arrival at destination, the passenger refuses to pay, can the PH driver demand payment?

1)If he called the police, would they take action under the circumstances?

2)Would the passenger have committed an offence by refusing to pay for a journey that the driver has undertaken illegally?

Discuss, as they say.
Author:  wannabeeahack [ Sun May 16, 2010 12:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
you mean a PH has taken a flag down?

did the passenger know the law?

cops probably wouldnt give a toss
Author:  Brummie Cabbie [ Sun May 16, 2010 12:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have always maintained that if PH take an illegal flag-down or hiring whilst illegally standing & plying, there is nothing the law can do if the passenger refuses to pay.

In fact, when I am faced with passengers opting to hire a PH off the street & I confront them (both driver & passenger) but the passenger insists on getting into the PHV, I often tell the passenger that as they have hired the PH illegally they don't have to pay the driver at the other end & it isn't illegal for them to refuse to pay.

It usually sh*ts up the driver too!!

After all, what's the driver going to do . . . . call the police & risk the passenger making a written statement which includes stating that he did not pre-book the PHV & having the LO take a big interest in the matter?

I don't think so!!

Mind you; knowing how the Police work, they would probably deem it a bilking offence, but if a Hack was legally hired by flag-down or on a rank & the passenger refused to pay, the Police would of course deem that to be a civil matter & not a criminal offence.

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Author:  Sussex [ Sun May 16, 2010 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a PH driver demand payment for illegal hire?
jimbo wrote:
If a Private Hire driver picks up a passenger, and on arrival at destination, the passenger refuses to pay, can the PH driver demand payment?

If they refuse to pay that's a civil matter, providing they had the money on them, and had every intention to pay, when they first got in the car.

If not then it's a criminal matter. :wink:
Author:  jimbo [ Sun May 16, 2010 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a PH driver demand payment for illegal hire?
Sussex wrote:
jimbo wrote:
If a Private Hire driver picks up a passenger, and on arrival at destination, the passenger refuses to pay, can the PH driver demand payment?

If they refuse to pay that's a civil matter, providing they had the money on them, and had every intention to pay, when they first got in the car.

If not then it's a criminal matter. :wink:


If I did not make it clear initially, I meant if the PH driver ILLEGALLY picked up a punter, would they be able to do anything about it if the punter refused to pay?
Author:  wannabeeahack [ Sun May 16, 2010 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a PH driver demand payment for illegal hire?
jimbo wrote:
Sussex wrote:
jimbo wrote:
If a Private Hire driver picks up a passenger, and on arrival at destination, the passenger refuses to pay, can the PH driver demand payment?

If they refuse to pay that's a civil matter, providing they had the money on them, and had every intention to pay, when they first got in the car.

If not then it's a criminal matter. :wink:


If I did not make it clear initially, I meant if the PH driver ILLEGALLY picked up a punter, would they be able to do anything about it if the punter refused to pay?


yes

the obvious...... :sad:
Author:  jimbo [ Sun May 16, 2010 4:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Which is?
Author:  Sussex [ Sun May 16, 2010 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a PH driver demand payment for illegal hire?
jimbo wrote:
If I did not make it clear initially, I meant if the PH driver ILLEGALLY picked up a punter, would they be able to do anything about it if the punter refused to pay?

If it came to the small claims court the driver would need to prove that the job was done and that no payment occurred.

The customer would have to prove that the job wasn't legal.
Author:  wannabeeahack [ Sun May 16, 2010 5:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
jimbo wrote:
Which is?


have a word
Author:  tx_op [ Sun May 16, 2010 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a PH driver demand payment for illegal hire?
jimbo wrote:
If a Private Hire driver picks up a passenger, and on arrival at destination, the passenger refuses to pay, can the PH driver demand payment?

1)If he called the police, would they take action under the circumstances?

2)Would the passenger have committed an offence by refusing to pay for a journey that the driver has undertaken illegally?

Discuss, as they say.


If it were a legitimate booking then the driver has every right to both demand and be payed.

A. No !! The courts view is not in the public's interest to seek prosecution..in other words, the Law and LA's conditions are so full of holes that they do not wish these to be disclosed .... :-k
Author:  mancityfan [ Sun May 16, 2010 7:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
2 offences commited 1 by the driver and 1 by the passenger?

14. Bilking by hirers (other relevant legislation)
The following summarises other relevant legislation which might be relevant where a PHV driver encounters a problem in their daily activities. PHV drivers should however not view the inclusion of these provisions in the Abstract of the Laws as an encouragement to take the law into their own hands.
It should also be stressed that where a passenger refuses to pay the agreed fare for the journey, the appropriate course of action is to make a call and await the arrival of the police as it is not permissible for a PHV driver to lock a passenger in a PHV vehicle against their will. Anyone who behaves in this manner may be committing the offence of false imprisonment.
False imprisonment is an offence at common law punishable by fine and imprisonment at the discretion of the court. False imprisonment consists in the unlawful and intentional or reckless restraint of a victim’s freedom of movement from a particular place.
Note also that wrongful arrest may render the person arresting liable for a civil claim.
Where a person dishonestly obtains services (for example, hiring a PHV vehicle) by deception, he is guilty of an offence punishable by 2 years imprisonment and unlimited amount of fine or upon summary conviction, to 6 months imprisonment or a fine of up to £ 1,000 (under s3 and 5 of the Theft Act 1978).
A person who knows that payment on the spot for a service done is required of him but dishonestly makes off without payment, intending never to pay, is guilty of an offence punishable by 2 years imprisonment and unlimited amount of fine or upon summary conviction, to 6 months imprisonment or a fine of up to £1,000 (under s3 of the Theft Act 1978).
Any person who without lawful excuse destroys or damages property belonging to another intending to do so or being reckless as to the likely consequences of his actions commits an offence punishable by an unlimited amount of fine and imprisonment of up to 10 years (Criminal Damage Act 1971).
There is power for the court to award appropriate compensation to any individual in cases where they have had their property destroyed or where a passenger makes off without paying the required fare
Author:  jimbo [ Sun May 16, 2010 8:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
mancityfan wrote:
2 offences commited 1 by the driver and 1 by the passenger?

14. Bilking by hirers (other relevant legislation)
The following summarises other relevant legislation which might be relevant where a PHV driver encounters a problem in their daily activities. PHV drivers should however not view the inclusion of these provisions in the Abstract of the Laws as an encouragement to take the law into their own hands.
It should also be stressed that where a passenger refuses to pay the agreed fare for the journey, the appropriate course of action is to make a call and await the arrival of the police as it is not permissible for a PHV driver to lock a passenger in a PHV vehicle against their will. Anyone who behaves in this manner may be committing the offence of false imprisonment.
False imprisonment is an offence at common law punishable by fine and imprisonment at the discretion of the court. False imprisonment consists in the unlawful and intentional or reckless restraint of a victim’s freedom of movement from a particular place.
Note also that wrongful arrest may render the person arresting liable for a civil claim.
Where a person dishonestly obtains services (for example, hiring a PHV vehicle) by deception, he is guilty of an offence punishable by 2 years imprisonment and unlimited amount of fine or upon summary conviction, to 6 months imprisonment or a fine of up to £ 1,000 (under s3 and 5 of the Theft Act 1978).
A person who knows that payment on the spot for a service done is required of him but dishonestly makes off without payment, intending never to pay, is guilty of an offence punishable by 2 years imprisonment and unlimited amount of fine or upon summary conviction, to 6 months imprisonment or a fine of up to £1,000 (under s3 of the Theft Act 1978).
Any person who without lawful excuse destroys or damages property belonging to another intending to do so or being reckless as to the likely consequences of his actions commits an offence punishable by an unlimited amount of fine and imprisonment of up to 10 years (Criminal Damage Act 1971).
There is power for the court to award appropriate compensation to any individual in cases where they have had their property destroyed or where a passenger makes off without paying the required fare



All very well for a LEGALLY hired PH, but I asked what would be the redress for an ILLEGALLY hired vehicle. The driver is not entitled to ply for hire, so is he legally entitled to demand payment for a journey that he should not have carried out?

My feeling that they are not entitled to payment where the vehicle is not pre booked.
Author:  Sussex [ Sun May 16, 2010 8:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
jimbo wrote:
My feeling that they are not entitled to payment where the vehicle is not pre booked.

You may be right, but IMO it's not for the punter to decide, it's the courts.
Author:  jimbo [ Sun May 16, 2010 9:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sussex wrote:
jimbo wrote:
My feeling that they are not entitled to payment where the vehicle is not pre booked.

You may be right, but IMO it's not for the punter to decide, it's the courts.


Spoken like a PH driver, Susssex.

If the punter decides not to pay, he could say so sue me. Will the PH driver who touted the job in the first place call the police? I doubt it.

So, if real taxi drivers were to advise punters to get into a PH to go home and then decline to pay, would they then be liable to prosecution for incitement to commit a criminal offence? Again, I doubt it.

How about if Real taxi drivers handed out leaflets on a saturday night, telling punters "how to get home for free?"

Is a PH driver who touts a job, and ends up with a non payer going to phone the police to complain?

If I suggest to Hackney drivers to leaflet punters with a message stating "how to get home for free by flagging down a PHV" would I be guilty of an offence?
Author:  Nigel [ Mon May 17, 2010 3:36 am ]
Post subject: 
jimbo wrote:
If I suggest to Hackney drivers to leaflet punters with a message stating "how to get home for free by flagging down a PHV" would I be guilty of an offence?


No because we used to do this some years ago. One frim tried to take us all to court but got nowhere when the Council said if they were working within their licensing conditions there would be nothing to worry about.
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/