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Bus touts?
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Author:  Dusty Bin [ Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Bus touts?

Night clubs in a nearby city send coaches and minibuses through to our town to collect punters to got to the nightclubs.

This they do by having people stand on the pavement and hand out leaflets to passing pubgoers.

Is this legal - the buses either belong to the nightclubs or coach operators.

What they're doing doen't bother me except for the fact that they plonk their buses in the middle of our 'rank' and often wait there for more than an hour.

Our rank is unofficial, so there's nothing we can do about it, but it's a pain.

Dusty

Author:  Sussex [ Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:21 pm ]
Post subject: 

Is there anyway your local trade could make the rank official?

As for the touting, well I think it could be, but I would ask your regional traffic commissioner for his/her views.

Perhaps you and your mates should go out one night, get [edited by admin] up, and spew up all over the bus seats. :oops:

Author:  Andy7 [ Sat Nov 22, 2003 10:57 pm ]
Post subject: 

It sounds very illegal to me.

A Bus is either:

1. operating a "local service" which needs to be registered with the Traffic Commissioners for your area. In this case, the operator must submit a route notification 42 days or so before commencement of the service, and you are entitled to make representations about where it stops and parks direct to the Traffic Commissioners or via your local authority. Or,

2. The bus may operate a "private hire" in which the whole bus must be pre-booked by a single entity. Or,

3. The bus may be operating an "excursion" where the operator pre-sells seats to the public at individual fares, but they must all be pre-booked as with a private hire. Or,

4. The bus may be operating an "Express Service" with "certain" stopping points more than 15 miles apart.

In addition, the use of SMALL buses as Taxis, was also expressly stopped by Section 265 of the Transport Act 2000.

My suggestion, would be to make a representation to your local traffic commissioners (in writing), simultaneously asking if the routes are registered, and get as many of you as you can to sign it, stating that "by established use" you are using the position as a rank, and the buses are obstructing you and causing a hazard.

Oh yes, and, if operated by the nightclubs, what Licences are they running under? As they are hire and reward - several Court rullings on this. Pubs cannot run unlicensed cars to get their punters to and from.

Author:  Dusty Bin [ Sun Nov 23, 2003 4:11 am ]
Post subject: 

Sussex Man wrote:
Is there anyway your local trade could make the rank official?



No way, there's been a lot of huffing and puffing about it over the past year or two, if anything they'll double yellow it to get rid of us.

But if they give us a new official rank it won't be in such a good location, that's why it's best to let sleeping dogs lie to some extent.

Dusty

Author:  Dusty Bin [ Sun Nov 23, 2003 4:13 am ]
Post subject: 

Thanks for the info Andy7, I definitely need a bit of coaching in bus matters.

Geddit??

Dusty :?

Author:  Andy7 [ Sun Nov 23, 2003 9:39 am ]
Post subject: 

:lol: :lol: :lol: Very good.

Author:  Tulsablue [ Fri Nov 28, 2003 8:51 am ]
Post subject:  bus touts

not quite correct Andy
The "service" does not need to be registered if it is not open to the public in general ie it is only for the customers of the nightclub in a similar way to free supermarktet buses. There are some other extra bits but very technical. I am in the Coach Industry and I really do wish that all forms of Public Transport would learn to work together.

Author:  gedmay [ Fri Nov 28, 2003 8:52 pm ]
Post subject: 

Mr Blue,
We would indeed love to work with you, and then perhaps we could then be able to claim the subsidies that you are entitled to. Our main problem is that we see work that is taxi orientated being taken by any body with out any sanctions being taken, for example buses waiting outside clubs on a Friday/Saturday night just like a taxi. I would ask your opinion on a cab running the route just in front of a bus and picking up from the stops?
If this reply seems defensive I am sorry but if you are serious about common ground stay with the forum and give us your ideas.
Ged
Ps I hope we do not wait 24 hours to get a reply from Tulsa :lol:

Author:  Sussex [ Fri Nov 28, 2003 11:01 pm ]
Post subject: 

gedmay wrote:
Ps I hope we do not wait 24 hours to get a reply from Tulsa :lol:


I expect he has heard that many many times, but Ged 10 out of 10. :D :D

Author:  Yorkie [ Sat Nov 29, 2003 2:50 am ]
Post subject: 

a quote from West Yorkshire Passenger Transport executive prospectus on tendering with love from me to Sussex Andy

" A private hire opperator would need to upgrade to hackney carriage if the contract is won"

at least they know whos on top!

Wharfie

Author:  Sussex [ Sat Nov 29, 2003 8:38 am ]
Post subject: 

More likely they know that you can't charge over the meter, whereas PH can charge what they think the jobs worth.

Thus they are just being cheap skates and going to the lowest common denominator. :D :D :D :D

Author:  Guest [ Sat Nov 29, 2003 2:49 pm ]
Post subject: 

Sussex Man wrote:
More likely they know that you can't charge over the meter, whereas PH can charge what they think the jobs worth.

Thus they are just being cheap skates and going to the lowest common denominator. :D :D :D :D


Good guess but you are wrong! but cannot go into it yet, on this contract the meter is irrelevant.

it did though give me a chuckle, and you was on my mind.

Author:  Andy7 [ Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: bus touts

Tulsablue wrote:
not quite correct Andy
The "service" does not need to be registered if it is not open to the public in general ie it is only for the customers of the nightclub in a similar way to free supermarktet buses. There are some other extra bits but very technical. I am in the Coach Industry and I really do wish that all forms of Public Transport would learn to work together.


Yes Tulsablue, you are absolutely correct. But then, it would be a Private Hire wouldn't it.

There have been a number of prosecutions for pubs running customers home in their own unlicensed mnibuses. I am not so sure how it stands if the pub were a PSV operator though. Or, the pub hired a PSV. But, if it charges separate fares a'la "excursion" should this not be pre-booked? I would suggest, if not pre-booked, it constitutes a separate fare "local service" consequently needing registration.

As for your comment about working together, do you mean in the same way as, for example, Brian Souter?

I too, wish that we could all work together much more than we do, so I support you on that one. But I too have been in the Bus/Coach Industry since 1969, and have not yet seen many examples of even two bus companies working together.

First Bus are the big operators around here, and they also run the railway, sadly however, in five years, they have not been able to get their Rail Link bus to connect with their own train timetable. And, when the trains fail, they use us and not their own Bus Company.

On the other side of the coin however, we operate a lot of taxi-link sub-feeder services for two large coach operators, and to date, we have worked extremely well together.

Sadly however, while John Prescott was very big on getting transport to integrate better, the only Transport Act we have had from his Government just moved Taxis and Buses further apart due to pressure from some councils. And not without some bitterness from some areas of the trade.

We can all work together, and many do. And I am sure this would all work much better if we started off with a level playing field, and legislation that made sense too.

Author:  Nidge2 [ Sun Nov 30, 2003 7:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bus touts?

Dusty Bin wrote:
Night clubs in a nearby city send coaches and minibuses through to our town to collect punters to got to the nightclubs.

This they do by having people stand on the pavement and hand out leaflets to passing pubgoers.

Is this legal - the buses either belong to the nightclubs or coach operators.

What they're doing doen't bother me except for the fact that they plonk their buses in the middle of our 'rank' and often wait there for more than an hour.

Our rank is unofficial, so there's nothing we can do about it, but it's a pain.

Dusty


Dusty, can you remember last year we had the same problem in Mansfield?? It's not illegal as long as the customer isn't paying. These buses will be funded by the nightclubs same as they were in Mansfield. They won't work because people don't want to be told what time to go home.

Author:  Guest [ Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:17 pm ]
Post subject: 

Nidge, I do believe it is still illegal, even if the customer isnt paying. There are a few Court cases where it was held that the customer WAS paying, but the payment was indirect (in that the customer paid entry to the nightclub/paid for drinks), and therefore the profit motive existed from that direction. I will try and find some of the cases in question.

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