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| Dundee court hearing http://www.taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1487 |
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| Author: | The Dundonian [ Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Dundee court hearing |
Does anyone know the exact motivation behind the 203020 appeal that was heard in Edinburgh last week? The DTOA appealed the decision that Dundee CC had been wrong not to grant 203020 the taxi plates they had applied for because it did not have current information relating to unmet demand. Why would DTOA continue with the appeal if numbers have been uncapped anyway, since winning the appeal can't change that. And Dundee CC weren't represented at the hearing so presumably they have no intention of changing course. It's been suggested that 203020 still think they are entitled to 70 saloon plates, which the DTOA don't want, hence their appeal. But if 203020 can have as many WAV plates as they want now then why do they want saloon plates - since they made a big noise about how good WAVs were and how bad saloons are then surely this would make them look ridiculous, and what would they do with the TXs if they were successful. Could the STF be pulling the DTOA's strings, since the outcome of the case could have ramifications beyond Dundee. Or is it all about costs? |
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| Author: | Sussex [ Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dundee court hearing |
The Dundonian wrote: Could the STF be pulling the DTOA's strings, since the outcome of the case could have ramifications beyond Dundee.
Or is it all about costs? If I remember right, the judge at the first hearing said that a 27 month old survey was insufficent evidence for a council to rely on. If that gets up-held, then indeed it will have ramifications for all taxi quota areas north of the border. 
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| Author: | Skull [ Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Dundee Court Decision |
The appeal has been heard, could be another 5 weeks before decision is final. The Skull 
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| Author: | JD [ Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dundee court hearing |
Sussex wrote: The Dundonian wrote: Could the STF be pulling the DTOA's strings, since the outcome of the case could have ramifications beyond Dundee. Or is it all about costs? If I remember right, the judge at the first hearing said that a 27 month old survey was insufficent evidence for a council to rely on. If that gets up-held, then indeed it will have ramifications for all taxi quota areas north of the border. I must admit I don't know what's been going on up there in Scotland but from the early court challenges regarding unmet demand it was always my understanding that a survey had a shelf life of two years. I know that councils say three years but I can't recall ever reading a case that mentioned three years. Maybe you can point me in the right direction? Best wishes JD |
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| Author: | Yorkie [ Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dundee court hearing |
JD wrote: Sussex wrote: The Dundonian wrote: Could the STF be pulling the DTOA's strings, since the outcome of the case could have ramifications beyond Dundee. Or is it all about costs? If I remember right, the judge at the first hearing said that a 27 month old survey was insufficent evidence for a council to rely on. If that gets up-held, then indeed it will have ramifications for all taxi quota areas north of the border. I must admit I don't know what's been going on up there in Scotland but from the early court challenges regarding unmet demand it was always my understanding that a survey had a shelf life of two years. I know that councils say three years but I can't recall ever reading a case that mentioned three years. Maybe you can point me in the right direction? Best wishes JD I thinks yer getting confused. the government mentioned 3 years in response to the oft report. |
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| Author: | the cipher man [ Sat Feb 19, 2005 2:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dundee court hearing |
JD wrote: Sussex wrote: The Dundonian wrote: Could the STF be pulling the DTOA's strings, since the outcome of the case could have ramifications beyond Dundee. Or is it all about costs? If I remember right, the judge at the first hearing said that a 27 month old survey was insufficent evidence for a council to rely on. If that gets up-held, then indeed it will have ramifications for all taxi quota areas north of the border. I must admit I don't know what's been going on up there in Scotland but from the early court challenges regarding unmet demand it was always my understanding that a survey had a shelf life of two years. I know that councils say three years but I can't recall ever reading a case that mentioned three years. Maybe you can point me in the right direction? Best wishes JD Page 19 para 37 of this document mentions three years. http://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/acc_data ... tfinal.pdf or this one http://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/acc_data ... 100105.pdf |
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| Author: | JD [ Sat Feb 19, 2005 8:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dundee court hearing |
the cipher man wrote: JD wrote: I must admit I don't know what's been going on up there in Scotland but from the early court challenges regarding unmet demand it was always my understanding that a survey had a shelf life of two years. I know that councils say three years but I can't recall ever reading a case that mentioned three years. Maybe you can point me in the right direction? Best wishes JD Page 19 para 37 of this document mentions three years. http://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/acc_data ... tfinal.pdf Thank you for the link. The Aberdeen survey is symptomatic of most other surveys when it comes to shelf life. As I previously stated most organisations that undertake this type of survey recommend a shelf life of 3 years and some even four years. The Aberdeen survey, which you kindly sent me, states the following. "The anticipated useful life of the current survey is three years". The pivotal word is "Anticipated". When I asked the question regarding survey shelf life, I was trying to determine if a court of law had recently laid down any specific time frame. I can't recall three years ever being mentioned in a court case but I vaguely recollect two years being mentioned but I could be wrong. Perhaps it doesn't really matter what shelf life is put on a survey, ultimately the courts will decide the correct time frame. I think that is why the Aberdeen survey used the word "Anticipated". Interesting subject surveys because quite a lot of the Councils who are at present retaining numbers control are doing so without having a survey. Should any of these councils ever get challenged and decide to go to court without the backing of a survey, It could be very interesting. Best wishes JD |
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| Author: | Sussex [ Sat Feb 19, 2005 9:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I think the survey folk have sort of set their own limits.
In most surveys they give a guide as to when the next survey should be if a council retains taxi quotas. Nearly always that is three years. Having a two yearly survey is quite interesting, because by the time they have surveyed, consulted, decided and issued new plates, then there's not a lot of time left until councillors have to approve the finance for the next one. I think they call it ''pointless bureaucracy''. 
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| Author: | Gateshead Angel [ Sat Feb 19, 2005 9:10 am ] |
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Is there not a possibility of producing a formula to decide numbers as there is for fare rises. If someone was to produce such a thing it would be worth thousands, and be able to be applied every year. Just a thought. B. Lucky
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| Author: | Yorkie [ Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Gateshead Angel wrote: Is there not a possibility of producing a formula to decide numbers as there is for fare rises.
If someone was to produce such a thing it would be worth thousands, and be able to be applied every year. Just a thought. B. Lucky no there isnt and never will be when it comes to that even dsurveys dont properly assess demand its a con. let the market decide. |
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| Author: | captain cab [ Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: Is there not a possibility of producing a formula to decide numbers as there is for fare rises.
If someone was to produce such a thing it would be worth thousands, and be able to be applied every year. Get your thinking cap on then GA, such a thing is posible despite what yorkie says. As for market forces, well its a tory and new labour thing aint it? Market forces and public service seem to me to be opposites, look at the knackered bus and rail services throughout the country, see what politicians of both persuasions have done to them. American Express? I'd rather walk (hehe quoting the sytle council now) Comerade Captain cab |
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| Author: | TDO [ Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dundee court hearing |
JD wrote: [Perhaps it doesn't really matter what shelf life is put on a survey, ultimately the courts will decide the correct time frame. I think that is why the Aberdeen survey used the word "Anticipated".
I never seem to get all the way through any of the cases I read, but having read the Coyle case and a bit of the Dundee case, I think some of the disputed ground may be on assessing demand between surveys, ie when the application for plates is determined. I may be wrong, but there may be some requirement to make some kind of assessment between surveys. Or perhaps that's why the shelf life is shorter in Scotland than in England. While the legislation is largely similar, it wouldn't be surprising if there were slight nuances in the case law between the two jurisdictions. |
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| Author: | Yorkie [ Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
captain cab wrote: Quote: Is there not a possibility of producing a formula to decide numbers as there is for fare rises. If someone was to produce such a thing it would be worth thousands, and be able to be applied every year. Get your thinking cap on then GA, such a thing is posible despite what yorkie says. As for market forces, well its a tory and new labour thing aint it? Market forces and public service seem to me to be opposites, look at the knackered bus and rail services throughout the country, see what politicians of both persuasions have done to them. American Express? I'd rather walk (hehe quoting the sytle council now) Comerade Captain cab if its possible tell us how! TELL YOU WHAT IS POSSIBLE for anyone on here to get a plate in a restricted authority, and if the council goes to court will lose a bucket load of costs. its bloody simple. however what Mick says about formula is impossible under the law. |
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| Author: | Gateshead Angel [ Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Yorkie wrote: Gateshead Angel wrote: Is there not a possibility of producing a formula to decide numbers as there is for fare rises. If someone was to produce such a thing it would be worth thousands, and be able to be applied every year. Just a thought. B. Lucky no there isnt and never will be when it comes to that even dsurveys dont properly assess demand its a con. let the market decide. Strange answer from a supposed intellectual of the taxi market that Yorkie mind. If you asked a customer how many taxis they would like to see, they'd just say "as long as I get one when I want one", so by following your theory the number of taxis should match the population. What I'm saying is that other questions should be asked, other comparisons should be made because it is apparent that current unmet demand surveys possibly don't identify demand properly, that being the case their method of investigation CAN be changed. Allowing Market forces to decide numbers is as detrimental to the taxi trade as it was to the busses and railways, the range of choice to the consumer will initially be good but the large operators will soon take the upper hand and force out of business some of the smaller operators, reducing choice to a level lower than pre-derestriction. Captain Cab wrote: Get your thinking cap on then GA, such a thing is posible despite what yorkie says.
I have already, but I don't see why this site should get credit as doing things properly doesn't seem to be on their agenda, maybe its something that an organisation who believe that the RIGHT AMOUNT of taxis should be licensed will take up the guantlet, time will tell. B. Lucky
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| Author: | captain cab [ Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: for anyone on here to get a plate in a restricted authority, and if the council goes to court will lose a bucket load of costs.
its bloody simple. hehe yorkie, I'll bet you a tenner you cant get one in Liverpool, Manchester or Glasgow 
Captain cab |
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