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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:46 pm 
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Sussex Man wrote:
Further to my previous post, a colleague from Brighton has just given me one of the reasons why the cartel operating there is bad for drivers.

A driver on one of the 'infamous five' had for a long while advertised in the local press for Airport work. He is/was fully licensed as an operator.

From one of those advertisements he gained work from one of the 'infamous five'. The operator was not best pleased, and with the help of the other four, that driver was blacked from all the other operators.

The more posters on TDO look into this myer, the more it stinks. :(


Here we go again... quoting from some suspicious "Contact". :lol: :lol:
:lol: You really should not fall for these stories.. or dare I say..make them up as you go along :lol: :lol:

However, if you would care to give me more details then I will look into it. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:02 pm 
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Sussex Man wrote:
scanner wrote:
How about making some proper comments on the information I have given :wink:



Or better still, the OFT will be asked to investigate what's going on.

.


I would welcome that as there is nothing to hide. The only cartel that works in Brighton, as in all other citys and towns, is the archaic method of controlling the hackney carriage fares that the council have full control over.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:21 pm 
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Anonymous wrote:

So really dusty. I dont see the point in you quoting this piece of news on here. Unless you are trying to show that there is a cartel working here. I mean.. the different prices quoted shows exactly that there isnt.


In reply to your post Mr Scanner, first of all please note that I didn’t claim there was a price-fixing cartel at Brighton Station, as your post seemed to imply – thus the use of the question mark in the title of the thread.

Also, cartels are not just about price-fixing – any type of agreement to restrict competition can be categorises as a cartel. Indeed the world’s most famous cartel – OPEC – does not fix oil prices, it influences prices by restricting supply.

Which brings us on to two (legal) cartels which we do know operate in Brighton and might serve to keep prices high, namely the restricted number of taxi licenses and the limited number of permits available to ply at Brighton station.

As for the incident outlined in the letter, I think that if the OFT (or whoever) were looking for evidence of restricted competition then I think they would jump at a scenario whereby the price of a product was twice that offered for a near identical product available nearby.

Indeed, around a month ago you seemed to think that some drivers at Brighton station might be acting unscrupulously as regards out-of-area unregulated trips (see below), which I think in OFT terms might be deemed as due to competition and/or regulatory problems. But now you seem to just dismiss this by saying that out-of-area journeys can be charged at any rate, which seems to contradict your earlier stance. Or how much higher than £70 for the trip would the driver have to charge (as compared to the ‘going rate’ of £35) before you thought it a rip-off?

As pointed out on here earlier, the total omission of unregulated fares from the OFT’s report seemed strange, and your attitude towards the scenario outlined in the letter seems to underline this – what’s the point of regulating fares at all if a major source of work is unregulated?

As regards what might or might not be happening at the station, please note that prices do not have to be identical for a price-fixing cartel to be operating, as you seem to imply – indeed, any sensible cartel would make sure that participants didn’t all charge identical prices, particularly when they are so obviously so far above the more competitive rate.

Of course there is no conclusive evidence that a price-fixing cartel is operating, but this business about the little books seems a bit iffy – surely the Gatwick run is a frequent trip from Brighton, and the driver would know the fare from top of his head?

As regards all hacks charging the same rate, well obviously they all tend to do so, but this often because people don’t have the opportunity to shop around, which would presumably have been the normal scenario but for the arrival of the taxi which was dropping at the station – many people presumably would pay the £66-£70 and be none the wiser – if this happened to you when buying something then I’m sure you would be apoplectic, and rightly so. Your point about the customer actually getting a very good price in the end and thus having no grounds for complaint also seems to completely miss the point, again how would you feel in similar circumstances?

I was surprised that the OFT didn’t have much more to say about taxi fares, other than the reproduce the top and bottom of the PHM tables and blabber a bit about LAs not having sufficient info to set fares. I suspect they knew that the system is flawed, but perhaps they were told that this issue was off limits, at least to the extent that it would require primary legislation to reform it. So they then came up with this idea to encourage price competition to ‘workaround’ what they considered to be uncompetitive fares, rather than tackling the issue head on – but they failed to address things like cartels and restricted access at uncompetitive locations such as transport termini, which would make their proposals irrelevant.

Dusty


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:28 pm 
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As mentioned above Mr Scanner, about a month ago you said, in reply to a post about fares that seemed no higher than that complained of in the letter about the station:

"I have had a taxi in Brighton for over twenty years and I can assure you that a driver trying to take "advantage" of an un-metered out of town fare is not new. I know some of the old (white) faces in the trade (some now long gone..some still around) who would boast about doing this at Brighton Station.

"I would also suspect that it is the same in every town. The trouble is that you and I get tarred with the same brush because of these people"

So Mr Scanner, what fare to Gatwick from the station would you consider constituted 'boasting' if the driver told you about it, and what level would you consider 'taking advantage'? More than £70 presumably.

Dusty


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:31 pm 
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scanner wrote:
I would welcome that as there is nothing to hide. The only cartel that works in Brighton, as in all other citys and towns, is the archaic method of controlling the hackney carriage fares that the council have full control over.


I wouldn't call this a cartel, and in view of your support for restricted numbers then I think your description of fare regulation as the 'only' cartel is a bit rich.

But leaving that issue aside, how would you improve the fare setting process?

Dusty


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:40 pm 
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scanner wrote:
I am shocked that you fully back the issue of drivers paying for work. I mean you constantly shout "Leach! Leach!" and yet here you are giving your whole weight for it. :(



Yes, many drivers are paying to work Mr Scanner, and it's a bit rich to complain about Medigen and £20k when plates in Brighton cost more than twice this 'to work'.

I'm not too keen on Medigen myself, but I really can't see the difference between them and the majority of taxi offices - but are charging drivers for work at sums approximating to the market rate.

But the difference between these freephones and the like is that any profits earned are market based, unlike the plate cartels.

Personally, I wouldn't pay for supermarket work at any price, but if anyone wants to then that's up to them.

Dusty


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:46 pm 
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scanner wrote:
You are a complete hypocrict. :lol: You are full of jealousy. :lol: You are a lone ph driver that belongs to no organisation :lol: You want to join a club and are so frustrated that you cant :lol: I remember people like you from my schooldays :lol: :lol:



:shock: :shock: :shock:

Don't hold back, Mr Scanner, why don't you say what you really think?

By the way, when you say 'club' don't you mean 'cartel'?

Dusty :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 6:54 pm 
A quick breeze into the Brighton debate.

A taxi hailed to Gatwick which probably isn't on a radio circuit is quite probably, no, almost certainly, looking at a one way fare.

If the booking is made through 'an office' then there is a fair chance that the driver will be given 'a return' thus doubling his take.

May I also suggest the 'taxi' that was dropping off at the station was quite likely to be a private hire car.

One of our customers forgot to book his collection from Heathrow on Monday evening, so rather than wait for us to get a car to him he hailed one of Claude's mate off a rank.

Our charge would have £65, he paid the black cab £125. Same principal applies I believe.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 7:01 pm 
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scanner wrote:
I repeat what stated before. WE LET TESCOS CUTOMERS CALL WHOEVER THEY WANT You cannot get any farer than that. But of course...for the sake of making more posts to reach your 6000 posts goal you will disagree with that :lol: :lol:


Of course I disagree with that, not because your firm choose not to tender, but because it was agreed that no firm would tender.

If I was a driver in Brighton, then I would love my firm to get the work. If it cost 10/20 grand then so be it.

As I have said before, I would rather pay £200 a week dues and take £700, than pay £50 a week and take £400.

I also think it short sighted of your firm not to pay. If it was £20,000, then all you need is to take 4/5/6 drivers from another circuit to pay for it.

But perhaps that's why the cartel don't do it, cos they want to keep what they have. They are scared of fair competition. :(

No wonder they signed that letter in PHM.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 7:05 pm 
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scanner wrote:
However, if you would care to give me more details then I will look into it. :wink:


Look if you don't believe me then I really couldn't care less, but do you think I would make up such a story like that if it wasn't true.

Because if I did then you would quite rightly come back on TDO and tell others that it was a complete loads of lies.

So please don't ask me to verify it. I suspect you must talk to your representative on the cartel, so ask him.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 7:07 pm 
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scanner wrote:
I would welcome that as there is nothing to hide. The only cartel that works in Brighton, as in all other citys and towns, is the archaic method of controlling the hackney carriage fares that the council have full control over.


Well ask the council to get rid of it.

I suspect they would be glad to be rid of all the negativity and grief they get from the public.

But I bet you don't.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 7:11 pm 
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Tom Thumb wrote:
Our charge would have £65, he paid the black cab £125. Same principal applies I believe.


To a degree yes Tom.

But I think in the Brighton case the drivers were quoting far in excess of the metered fare.

I'm not too sure that any of Claude's mates do that.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:28 am 
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Sussex Man wrote:
scanner wrote:
I repeat what stated before. WE LET TESCOS CUTOMERS CALL WHOEVER THEY WANT You cannot get any farer than that. But of course...for the sake of making more posts to reach your 6000 posts goal you will disagree with that :lol: :lol:


Of course I disagree with that, not because your firm choose not to tender, but because it was agreed that no firm would tender.

If I was a driver in Brighton, then I would love my firm to get the work. If it cost 10/20 grand then so be it.

As I have said before, I would rather pay £200 a week dues and take £700, than pay £50 a week and take £400.

I also think it short sighted of your firm not to pay. If it was £20,000, then all you need is to take 4/5/6 drivers from another circuit to pay for it.

But perhaps that's why the cartel don't do it, cos they want to keep what they have. They are scared of fair competition. :(

No wonder they signed that letter in PHM.


Oh dear oh dear.. If we all tendered then that would mean going through medigen... who obviously has your full support.

As for the rest of your post.. well I suggest that you start up your own company and actually get into the real life... and you wouldnt last long :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:31 am 
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[quote="Tom Thumb"]A quick breeze into the Brighton debate.


May I also suggest the 'taxi' that was dropping off at the station was quite likely to be a private hire car.

quote]

With great respect I would very much doubt that it was a ph car as being in such close distance to the actual rank the ph car would not have made it ten yards!!! What with taxis coming and going all the time.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:33 am 
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Sussex Man wrote:
scanner wrote:
I would welcome that as there is nothing to hide. The only cartel that works in Brighton, as in all other citys and towns, is the archaic method of controlling the hackney carriage fares that the council have full control over.


Well ask the council to get rid of it.

I suspect they would be glad to be rid of all the negativity and grief they get from the public.

But I bet you don't.


Well I have news for you matey . I have been suggesting it for years to all of the half a dozen or so HCO's that have come and gone.


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