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Dodge...PAYE or self employed
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Author:  wannabeeahack [ Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Dodge...PAYE or self employed
never come across it before

a driver gets the NMW hourly rate but invoices a base and drives thier car, doesnt pay any costs

whats his real status?
Author:  grandad [ Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dodge...PAYE or self employed
I would say it depends on how he informs HMRC of his earnings. If he fills in a self assessment as it stands at the moment HMRC will class him as self employed. If he gets paid under PAYE by a registered employer he will be classed as an employee.
However I remember many years ago my brother in law worked for a company and get a weekly payslip with his tax and National Insurance deducted but it turned out that his employer was not registered as an employer so the tax and NI was being pocketed by the boss. When HMRC completed their investigation and the chap went to prison, my brother in law, and the rest of the staff were all hit with a tax and national insurance bill that they had to pay.
Author:  Sussex [ Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dodge...PAYE or self employed
wannabeeahack wrote:
never come across it before

a driver gets the NMW hourly rate but invoices a base and drives thier car, doesnt pay any costs

whats his real status?

Pretty certain an Employment Tribunal would class the driver as an employed worker.
Author:  StuartW [ Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dodge...PAYE or self employed
wannabeeahack wrote:
never come across it before

a driver gets the NMW hourly rate but invoices a base and drives thier car, doesnt pay any costs

whats his real status?

There are no hard and fast rules, and lots of factors need to be considered, but an hourly rate would certainly be a factor pointing towards employee status, as Sussex alludes.

And the arrangements made by the driver and the firm aren't the end of the story - I recall reading in the past about PAYE workers (not in the trade) actually being deemed self-employed by the courts. (Think it might have been in the context of whether the unfair dismissal legislation applied - it's not all about pay and holidays, etc.)

Of course, the trade debate is more about drivers contracting with firms as self-employed, and whether or not they should really be treated as PAYE employees.

If what the driver and firm agreed was the end of the story then we wouldn't be having the debate, and the Uber and Addison Lee tribunal/court cases wouldn't have happened.

There have been drivers here in my gaffe paid an hourly rate for years, but of course pre-Uber no one really bothered about these things, and indeed it still seems that the rules should only apply to the likes of Uber and Addy Lee [-(
Author:  wannabeeahack [ Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dodge...PAYE or self employed
Quote:
There are no hard and fast rules, and lots of factors need to be considered


In fact there are


Quote:
Someone is probably self-employed and shouldn’t be paid through PAYE if most of the following are true:

they’re in business for themselves, are responsible for the success or failure of their business and can make a loss or a profit
they can decide what work they do and when, where or how to do it
they can hire someone else to do the work
they’re responsible for fixing any unsatisfactory work in their own time
their employer agrees a fixed price for their work - it doesn’t depend on how long the job takes to finish
they use their own money to buy business assets, cover running costs, and provide tools and equipment for their work
they can work for more than one client

(This guy invoices just 1 "customer", the base who owns the car)
Author:  StuartW [ Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dodge...PAYE or self employed
wannabeeahack wrote:
Quote:
There are no hard and fast rules, and lots of factors need to be considered


In fact there are


Quote:
Someone is probably self-employed and shouldn’t be paid through PAYE if most of the following are true:

they’re in business for themselves, are responsible for the success or failure of their business and can make a loss or a profit
they can decide what work they do and when, where or how to do it
they can hire someone else to do the work
they’re responsible for fixing any unsatisfactory work in their own time
their employer agrees a fixed price for their work - it doesn’t depend on how long the job takes to finish
they use their own money to buy business assets, cover running costs, and provide tools and equipment for their work
they can work for more than one client

(This guy invoices just 1 "customer", the base who owns the car)

Note the word *probably* in the first line, which means that the list of factors can't be 'hard and fast'.

And while the listed factors themselves seem relatively straightforward, they're not nearly so easy to apply in practice.

Which in turn is why some of the court judgements on this kind of stuff can take an hour or more to read (which is why I never read them =; ), and the hearings themselves can last several days.

And why the opposing sides in such cases will provide pages and pages of research to support their case.

But I'm inclined to agree with you on this one, at least looking at the basic facts.

Then again, I've always been inclined to the view that if Uber drivers aren't self-employed then the vast majority of grassroots UK drivers aren't either [-(
Author:  wannabeeahack [ Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dodge...PAYE or self employed
StuartW wrote:
Then again, I've always been inclined to the view that if Uber drivers aren't self-employed then the vast majority of grassroots UK drivers aren't either [-(


Im the other way inclined, anyone who owns a car should be S/E, anyone who jockeys shouldnt be
Author:  Sussex [ Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dodge...PAYE or self employed
Quote:
Im the other way inclined, anyone who owns a car should be S/E, anyone who jockeys shouldnt be

But it's now commonplace with folks with company cars for those cars to be owned by the individual rather than the firm.

Mainly for tax purposes.
Author:  wannabeeahack [ Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dodge...PAYE or self employed
Sussex wrote:
Quote:
Im the other way inclined, anyone who owns a car should be S/E, anyone who jockeys shouldnt be

But it's now commonplace with folks with company cars for those cars to be owned by the individual rather than the firm.

Mainly for tax purposes.


so they have invested in thier employment...and it was always the way, id never heard of rented taxis till i moved here
Author:  Tom Thumb [ Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dodge...PAYE or self employed
Topic close to my heart.

After HMRC told me that the drivers who worked for my competitors were self-employed I decided it is all a farce.

Their conditions were;

You wear what we tell you'.

You work when we tell you.

You drive our car and take a percentage of your takings.

You cannot accept other work directly.

You can only join a rank when we tell you.

I am not sure how HMRC came to the decision that they are self-employed but they did.

I think the secret is get a good accountant who likes to work 'close to the edge' rather than the normal risk averse type.
Author:  wannabeeahack [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dodge...PAYE or self employed
Tom Thumb wrote:
Topic close to my heart.

After HMRC told me that the drivers who worked for my competitors were self-employed I decided it is all a farce.

Their conditions were;

You wear what we tell you'.

You work when we tell you.

You drive our car and take a percentage of your takings.

You cannot accept other work directly.

You can only join a rank when we tell you.

I am not sure how HMRC came to the decision that they are self-employed but they did.

I think the secret is get a good accountant who likes to work 'close to the edge' rather than the normal risk averse type.


Yet, in my old manor, 1 O/D got sick of competing against jockeys who did part time shifts thereby adding to the fleet on every shift he worked and complained to HMRC, 1 visit to the 2 bases in the town and all drivers who are not owners are now PAYE...
Author:  wannabeeahack [ Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dodge...PAYE or self employed
maybe its time HMRC introduced a CIS type card for non-PAYE staff?
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