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 Post subject: Hypothetical question ?
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 7:34 pm 
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If a PH firm has a satellite office in another licensing area with PH cars licensed to there and then uses those PH cars to provide the service over the border with the driver taking the calls on a mobile phone

Is that legal ?

I got asked that today by a couple of independents and couldn't answer it as technically they are receiving the bookings directly not having them subcontracted out by the office.

So can anyone answer this ?

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 8:22 pm 
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I would say that any booking must go through the operator first. having said that I don't think Uber jobs go through an operator before the driver gets the job.
Also our Council have given us permission to divert the phone directly to the driver who is working because all of our office staff are on furlough and there is no where near enough calls to warrant opening the office yet.

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 10:40 pm 
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edders23 wrote:
If a PH firm has a satellite office in another licensing area with PH cars licensed to there and then uses those PH cars to provide the service over the border with the driver taking the calls on a mobile phone

Is that legal ?

I got asked that today by a couple of independents and couldn't answer it as technically they are receiving the bookings directly not having them subcontracted out by the office.

So can anyone answer this ?


No it’s not legal, for a PH vehicle to except bookings he would need an ops licence even in his own area.


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 10:41 pm 
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Here’s what Gerald says.

Cross Border Hiring By Gerald Gouriet QC

Summary: cross border hiring & localism
“Cross border hiring” is a portmanteau expression covering a miscellany of different activities, some of which are lawfully undertaken, others unlawfully. There is no case law to the general effect that cross border hiring of PHV drivers is per se lawful; and PHV licences may be conditioned so as to prevent cross border hiring from undermining local licensing control.
The ‘Right to Roam’
The licensing requirements of PHV drivers and their vehicles, and the exemptions therefrom, are different from those made of PHV operators. The so-called ‘right to roam’ (insofar as it is a right) applies to PHV drivers and vehicles – not operators.
PHV drivers and vehicles
Outside Greater London the owner of a vehicle may not use it as a private hire vehicle in a controlled district unless the vehicle is licensed under section 48 LGMPA 1976: section 46(1)(a). Nor may the vehicle be driven otherwise than by someone licensed under section 51: section 46(1)(b). It is also an offence for the owner of a vehicle to employ as a driver someone who is not so licensed: 46(1)(c).
No offence under sections 46(1)(a), (b) or (c) is committed in respect of the use of a vehicle in controlled district A if a driver’s licence and a vehicle licence issued in controlled district B are in force: section 75(2). All three licences, however, (operator’s, driver’s and vehicle), must be issued by the same authority: Dittah v Birmingham City Council [1993] RTR 356.
The so-called “right to roam” of PHV drivers and vehicles derives from section 75(2). The right is not unqualified: PHV drivers and vehicles may not ply for hire, and may only fulfil a booking accepted by an operator licensed by the same authority as licensed them: Dittah.
PHV operators
Section 80(1) LGMPA 1976 provides:
“operate” means in the course of business to make provision for the invitation or acceptance of bookings for a private hire vehicle.
An operator may only make provision for the invitation or acceptance of PHV bookings in the controlled district in which he is licensed: LGMPA section 46(1)(d), applying section 80, subsections (1) & (2).
Section 75 of the LGMPA 1976 does not provide an exemption for operators (from section 46(1)(d)), equivalent to that which it provides for drivers and vehicles (from sections 46(1)(a), (b) & (c)). Thus, whilst drivers and vehicles may lawfully undertake journeys “which ultimately have no connection with the area in which they are licensed” (per Latham LJ in Shanks v North Tyneside BC [2001] LLR 706), lawful provision for the invitation or acceptance of bookings is anchored to the controlled district in which the operator is licensed.
Unlawful provision for invitation of bookings by PHV drivers
Whether or not provision has been made in breach of section 46(1)(d) is a question of fact. The following guidance emerges from the cases –
“It is simply a question of asking, in common sense terms, whether there has been provision made in the controlled district for invitation or acceptance of bookings”: Kingston Upon Hull City Council v Wilson(1995) WL 1082181, per Buxton J.
“There could well be provision for invitation of bookings in one place and for acceptance in another”: East Staffordshire BC v Rendell (1995) WL 1084118, per Simon Brown LJ.
“As the authorities clearly show, the main question is not where the act of accepting any particular booking or bookings take place, but where the provision is made”: idem
“The determining factor is not whether any individual booking was accepted, let alone where it was accepted, but whether the person accused has in the area in question made provision for the invitation or acceptance of bookings in general”: Windsor and Maidenhead v Khan [1994] RTR 87, per McCullough J.
If a PHV operator makes arrangements for drivers in his fleet to go to remote areas (i.e. other than the area of the authority that licensed the operator/drivers/vehicles) it may well be that, on the facts of a particular case, he is unlawfully making provision for the invitation of PHV bookings. If he has organised dedicated parking areas and pick up points for his drivers, and the means to let the public know they are waiting there and available for hire, it may be difficult to conclude otherwise.
Undermining local licensing control: revocation or refusal to renew licence
Section 62(1) of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976 gives a licensing authority power to refuse to renew (or revoke) an operator’s licence on the grounds that –
(a) he has committed an offence under the 1976 Act (or an immigration offence);
(b) he is otherwise not fit and proper to hold the licence;
(c) there is a material change of circumstances: or
(d) any other reasonable cause.
Even in circumstances that are otherwise lawful, a PHV operator who knowingly sends drivers in his fleet to work (exclusively or predominantly) in remote areas where they are not licensed, is vulnerable to having his operator’s licence revoked or refused renewal under section 62(1)(d) of the 1976 Act on the ground that he undermines local licensing control. The threat to public safety (let alone the affront to local control) in the growing use of drivers who ‘shop’ to be licensed by authorities that demand only the lowest standards, so that they can work in an area where standards are higher but licences more difficult to obtain, is ample demonstration of “reasonable cause”. At least one PHV operator has been known to steer potential drivers to licensing authorities with minimal licensing criteria and low licensing fees.
Erosion of localism: licence conditions
The Courts have said that “the hallmark of the licensing regulatory regime is localism”[1], and that “that the authorities responsible for granting licences should have the authority to exercise full control” over “all vehicles and drivers being operated … within its area.” [2]
In The Queen on the application of Delta Merseyside Limited and Uber Britannia Limited v Knowsley BC [2018] EWHC 757, Kerr J said –
“I refrain from expressing any view on the point, but I am fortified in my conclusion in this case by the consideration that, in principle, a condition on a licence could be imposed which, if otherwise lawful, would require a fit and proper person who is a licence holder to abide by whatever restrictions are contained within a condition that are considered reasonably necessary to meet any perceived erosion of localism in the governance of PHV licensing.”
Conclusions
Although correction of the abuses of what may lawfully be done by way of cross border hiring may, as has frequently been said, require national legislative change, it is only necessary to enforce existing law to address some of the widespread concerns about unlawful cross border operations and the erosion of localism by some minicab firms and their drivers.

Gerald Gouriet QC



RE: UBER BRITANNIA LIMITED

UNLICENSED PROVISION FOR THE INVITATION OF PHV BOOKINGS LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) ACT 1976

YORK PRIVATE HIRE ASSOCIATION

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 10:44 pm 
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Summary

Summary: cross border hiring & localism
“Cross border hiring” is a portmanteau expression covering a miscellany of different activities, some of which are lawfully undertaken, others unlawfully. There is no case law to the general effect that cross border hiring of PHV drivers is per se lawful; and PHV licences may be conditioned so as to prevent cross border hiring from undermining local licensing control.
The ‘Right to Roam’
The licensing requirements of PHV drivers and their vehicles, and the exemptions therefrom, are different from those made of PHV operators. The so-called ‘right to roam’ (insofar as it is a right) applies to PHV drivers and vehicles – not operators.
PHV drivers and vehicles
Outside Greater London the owner of a vehicle may not use it as a private hire vehicle in a controlled district unless the vehicle is licensed under section 48 LGMPA 1976: section 46(1)(a). Nor may the vehicle be driven otherwise than by someone licensed under section 51: section 46(1)(b). It is also an offence for the owner of a vehicle to employ as a driver someone who is not so licensed: 46(1)(c).
No offence under sections 46(1)(a), (b) or (c) is committed in respect of the use of a vehicle in controlled district A if a driver’s licence and a vehicle licence issued in controlled district B are in force: section 75(2). All three licences, however, (operator’s, driver’s and vehicle), must be issued by the same authority: Dittah v Birmingham City Council [1993] RTR 356.
The so-called “right to roam” of PHV drivers and vehicles derives from section 75(2). The right is not unqualified: PHV drivers and vehicles may not ply for hire, and may only fulfil a booking accepted by an operator licensed by the same authority as licensed them: Dittah.
PHV operators
Section 80(1) LGMPA 1976 provides:
“operate” means in the course of business to make provision for the invitation or acceptance of bookings for a private hire vehicle.
An operator may only make provision for the invitation or acceptance of PHV bookings in the controlled district in which he is licensed: LGMPA section 46(1)(d), applying section 80, subsections (1) & (2).
Section 75 of the LGMPA 1976 does not provide an exemption for operators (from section 46(1)(d)), equivalent to that which it provides for drivers and vehicles (from sections 46(1)(a), (b) & (c)). Thus, whilst drivers and vehicles may lawfully undertake journeys “which ultimately have no connection with the area in which they are licensed” (per Latham LJ in Shanks v North Tyneside BC [2001] LLR 706), lawful provision for the invitation or acceptance of bookings is anchored to the controlled district in which the operator is licensed.
Unlawful provision for invitation of bookings by PHV drivers
Whether or not provision has been made in breach of section 46(1)(d) is a question of fact. The following guidance emerges from the cases –
“It is simply a question of asking, in common sense terms, whether there has been provision made in the controlled district for invitation or acceptance of bookings”: Kingston Upon Hull City Council v Wilson(1995) WL 1082181, per Buxton J.
“There could well be provision for invitation of bookings in one place and for acceptance in another”: East Staffordshire BC v Rendell (1995) WL 1084118, per Simon Brown LJ.
“As the authorities clearly show, the main question is not where the act of accepting any particular booking or bookings take place, but where the provision is made”: idem
“The determining factor is not whether any individual booking was accepted, let alone where it was accepted, but whether the person accused has in the area in question made provision for the invitation or acceptance of bookings in general”: Windsor and Maidenhead v Khan [1994] RTR 87, per McCullough J.
If a PHV operator makes arrangements for drivers in his fleet to go to remote areas (i.e. other than the area of the authority that licensed the operator/drivers/vehicles) it may well be that, on the facts of a particular case, he is unlawfully making provision for the invitation of PHV bookings. If he has organised dedicated parking areas and pick up points for his drivers, and the means to let the public know they are waiting there and available for hire, it may be difficult to conclude otherwise.
Undermining local licensing control: revocation or refusal to renew licence
Section 62(1) of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976 gives a licensing authority power to refuse to renew (or revoke) an operator’s licence on the grounds that –
(a) he has committed an offence under the 1976 Act (or an immigration offence);
(b) he is otherwise not fit and proper to hold the licence;
(c) there is a material change of circumstances: or
(d) any other reasonable cause.
Even in circumstances that are otherwise lawful, a PHV operator who knowingly sends drivers in his fleet to work (exclusively or predominantly) in remote areas where they are not licensed, is vulnerable to having his operator’s licence revoked or refused renewal under section 62(1)(d) of the 1976 Act on the ground that he undermines local licensing control. The threat to public safety (let alone the affront to local control) in the growing use of drivers who ‘shop’ to be licensed by authorities that demand only the lowest standards, so that they can work in an area where standards are higher but licences more difficult to obtain, is ample demonstration of “reasonable cause”. At least one PHV operator has been known to steer potential drivers to licensing authorities with minimal licensing criteria and low licensing fees.
Erosion of localism: licence conditions
The Courts have said that “the hallmark of the licensing regulatory regime is localism”[1], and that “that the authorities responsible for granting licences should have the authority to exercise full control” over “all vehicles and drivers being operated … within its area.” [2]
In The Queen on the application of Delta Merseyside Limited and Uber Britannia Limited v Knowsley BC [2018] EWHC 757, Kerr J said –
“I refrain from expressing any view on the point, but I am fortified in my conclusion in this case by the consideration that, in principle, a condition on a licence could be imposed which, if otherwise lawful, would require a fit and proper person who is a licence holder to abide by whatever restrictions are contained within a condition that are considered reasonably necessary to meet any perceived erosion of localism in the governance of PHV licensing.”
Conclusions
Although correction of the abuses of what may lawfully be done by way of cross border hiring may, as has frequently been said, require national legislative change, it is only necessary to enforce existing law to address some of the widespread concerns about unlawful cross border operations and the erosion of localism by some minicab firms and their drivers.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 1:13 am 
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If there is a computer in the satellite office and the 3 license rule is being abided by,the computer could automatically forward the call to the drivers mobile which should not be a problem.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 3:19 am 
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heathcote wrote:
If there is a computer in the satellite office and the 3 license rule is being abided by,the computer could automatically forward the call to the drivers mobile which should not be a problem.

Yes. I mean, even in the normal scenario, is it legal to divert a phone call from an op's office to a driver with a mobile phone?

If it is then I can't see that the cross-border aspect is relevant.


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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 8:24 am 
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StuartW wrote:
heathcote wrote:
If there is a computer in the satellite office and the 3 license rule is being abided by,the computer could automatically forward the call to the drivers mobile which should not be a problem.

Yes. I mean, even in the normal scenario, is it legal to divert a phone call from an op's office to a driver with a mobile phone?

If it is then I can't see that the cross-border aspect is relevant.

I don't think under normal circumstances a phone call cam be diverted to the driver in the car to take a booking. However I don't think the likes of UBER use phone calls. The jobs are booked remotely and dispatched remotely by a computer possibly in the correct district but probably not.

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 11:55 am 
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mancityfan wrote:
edders23 wrote:
If a PH firm has a satellite office in another licensing area with PH cars licensed to there and then uses those PH cars to provide the service over the border with the driver taking the calls on a mobile phone

Is that legal ?

I got asked that today by a couple of independents and couldn't answer it as technically they are receiving the bookings directly not having them subcontracted out by the office.

So can anyone answer this ?


No it’s not legal, for a PH vehicle to except bookings he would need an ops licence even in his own area.


as far as I am aware they hold ops licenses for both areas

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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 7:05 pm 
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Sort of agree with what has been said above, but this judgement, IMO, makes things less straightforward as it once was.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32094

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