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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 12:11 am 
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By the way, the Deregulation Act didn't have inclusion for Plymouth. That affects no change to quite a few things in this Licensing Regime, that the great unwashed in the rest of the Country (except London) have to deal with.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 12:30 am 
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We explained that the true meaning of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976 (76 Act) as was the will and intention of parliament was localism, not only in the costs associated with license fees but conditions set for drivers, vehicles and operators as suited each authority when they adopted the 76 Act.

Indeed, the very issue that plagues authorities in Wales today was discussed at length and can be read in the Hansard reports available online which I will include extracts, links to the Hansard and which column to find the discussions that I quote.

Lord Airedale on the 21st of June 1976 raised his concern that a vehicle licensed in one area could not pick up passengers in another area which is the issue today known as cross border hiring, his example of what was Clause 66 in the draft Bill (now Section 75 of the 76 Act) was as follows.

Now we come to the third element: if a vehicle is not made available for hire within the district. Think of the mischief that that could cause! Somebody in Basingstoke marries somebody who lives in Aldershot. They have the wedding in Aldershot. There is a huge coming and going of friends and relations between Aldershot and Basingstoke. Somebody hires a car from Basingstoke, and it goes to Aldershot. They say, " Now will you take somebody else back to Basingstoke? ". The answer is " No ". It cannot be done; it does not come within this subsection because they are not allowed to make the vehicle available for hire within the district. So, what happens? The car from Basingstoke has to go back empty from Aldershot, and another car has to be hired in Aldershot to go to Basingstoke. It comes back empty to Aldershot.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/197 ... Provisions)Bill?highlight=lord%20airedale#contribution-35b79c26-5189-4d51-ab7a-fa0946b772cc (Column 91)

The answer to this question came on the 13th of July 1976 where Lord Harris of Greenwich replied to the question raised by saying…

We recognised that it would not be right that the operations of legitimate and respectable private hire organisations should be hindered by restrictions introduced partly to protect the interests of the travelling public and partly to reduce unlawful and misleading activities by less reputable organisations. It was seen that the introduction of licensing control certainly would have a serious effect on the legitimate activities of the private hire trade if simple licensing on a district level were to be introduced without some modification recognising the essentially mobile nature of the hire car and its driver. Licensing appropriate to the hackney carriage because of that vehicle's unique privilege of plying for hire in the district is clearly not appropriate to the private hire car booked in advance for hiring.

The first part of the Amendment provides that the licensed private hire vehicle in respect of which a vehicle licence issued by a district council under Part II is in force may be fully used as a private hire vehicle in any other controlled district. It may also of course be used in any district not subject to control. Such a vehicle may, in any other district, collect, set down or pass in transit, and that I think was one of the anxieties which in particular was expressed during the Committee stage. We would not agree of course that a vehicle not licensed anywhere, that is to say a vehicle operated from an uncontrolled area, should enjoy so wide a privilege. I think that is self-evident. The relaxation contained in this part of the Amendment is quite wide and I hope your Lordships will agree that it deals adequately and fairly with the problem which was discussed when this matter last came before your Lordships.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/197 ... Provisions)Bill?highlight=local%20government%20miscellaneous%20provisions%20act%201976#contribution-8dabc090-45b7-4b62-ab8b-d2276b24a0e0 (Column 244)

While Lord Airedale wished to clarify some points further, he acknowledged at Column 246 of the same days debate (the same link as above) that…

As the Minister pointed out, the first paragraph of the Amendment deals merely with vehicles operating from one controlled area and giving them free passage in other controlled areas.

This is in fact where the term “the right to roam” was born meaning that a vehicle may pick up, pass through, or drop off in any other district regardless of the 76 Act being adopted in those districts or not.

However, if you continue to read Hansard on the 26th of July 1976 Lord Harris of Greenwich confirms the meaning of which Section 75 (1)(a) of the 76 Act truly means when he says…

This would be a return to the present uncontrolled situation which has itself caused Parliament to add Part II to the Bill. For such a journey, the hirer would be liable to find himself driven in an untested, unlicensed, inadequately maintained, or insured vehicle, by a driver of whom nothing is known. That would be the position if the Amendment were carried and, frankly, this is wholly contrary to the general intention of this Part of the Bill. The Bill already provides Clause 75(1)(a) that any vehicles, whether or not licensed, may bring a passenger into a controlled district under a contract made outside it and provided that the vehicle is not made available for hire in the district. This is to allow businesses operated from outside the controlled district to perform journeys into or through controlled districts without the need of licences, and it safeguards the right of vehicles from uncontrolled districts to perform hirings into controlled districts.
(Our emphasis)

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/197 ... Provisions)Bill?highlight=private%20hire#main-content (column 1119)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 12:50 am 
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Very good, read all through it years ago but you refreshed my memory.

All goes by the by with the Deregulation Act of course, (I have put the relevant in viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4660 ).

The 1976 Act when enacted was adoptive. Some of the scenarios possibly envisaged areas that would not adopt. That, save Plymouth, is not the case now.

The Misc Prov '76 was based on the PCC '75 but wasn't, and isn't, the same.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 12:54 am 
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Alex, think this thread is in the wrong section....

Perhaps "Licensing and Legal" would be better. It certainly isn't "News", but it is important.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 1:09 am 
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Chris the Fish wrote:
Very good, read all through it years ago but you refreshed my memory.

All goes by the by with the Deregulation Act of course, (I have put the relevant in http://www.taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/vie ... =13&t=4660 ).

How can you say the Dereg Act changes everything?

If that's the case then why does the Deregulation Act insert two options into the 76 Act for operators licensed by the 76 Act?

Also, Hansard records this while the Deregulation Act was being discussed...
On private hires operating in an area where they are not licensed, if they are going there simply for private hire, that may be lawful. However, if they then carry on and park in a stand-by, that would be illegal and that would put more pressure on the local enforcement authorities’ resources. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that must be addressed?


The 1976 Act when enacted was adoptive. Some of the scenarios possibly envisaged areas that would not adopt. That, save Plymouth, is not the case now.

The Misc Prov '76 was based on the PCC '75 but wasn't, and isn't, the same.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 10:47 am 
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I think Mr Wardy has a point, but it’s a point that needed to be argued in 1976.

I think even if the point was argued successfully today, and PH vehicles and drivers were prohibited from loitering outside of their areas, then the government would change the law, almost overnight, to allow said loitering.

Don’t get me wrong, I would love a non loitering requirement, but when you have companies that are worth billions, and prepared to spend billions, the chances of what Mr Wardy has outlined happening are, IMO, less than zero.

But it’s a great issue to discuss and dissect.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 11:38 am 
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I think Wardy has a good point too. But I would urge him to restrain himself from giving Lawyers money to act on his behalf - money lost!

It was late when I added to the thread last night - in the Court Database thread I put the relevant part of the Dereg Act. I didn't make clear that the limited provisions in it were not the only changes over the years that Plymouth have not "kept up with". Without going through all my files, I think Plymouth City Council (PCC) can:

Limit PH Numbers (but apart from a 2 week spell decades ago, never have).

Have Contract Exemption (remains but PCC choose not to allow).

Only Hackneys can be Taxi Busses.

Not issue immediate suspensions (but I am sure they would argue for Bail Conditions by Magistrates be applied that achieve the same aim).



There are loads of others, but rafts of Legislation affecting 1976 and Metropolitan areas are not dealt with adequately in Plymouth - just "Work-around's" using Bye-Laws and Taxi & PH Policies.

Should Taxi and PH Legislation be updated? Of course, but the likelihood is that the door Wardy wants to slam shut will actually be pushed fully open. The easiest system (from a legislative point of view) would be National Licensing. Market forces would (in their opinion) settle provision of Cars, H or PH, in quantities to meet the needs of the travelling Public.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 11:49 am 
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Due to an error in your quote of me, your point would seem to be down to me.

In fact:

Quote from Wardy
How can you say the Dereg Act changes everything?

If that's the case then why does the Deregulation Act insert two options into the 76 Act for operators licensed by the 76 Act?

Also, Hansard records this while the Deregulation Act was being discussed...
On private hires operating in an area where they are not licensed, if they are going there simply for private hire, that may be lawful. However, if they then carry on and park in a stand-by, that would be illegal and that would put more pressure on the local enforcement authorities’ resources. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that must be addressed?

End quote.

The dereg changes things, of course it does.

Your extract from Hansard is a question, to make any sense now, you need the answer to the question to be given too - and I can't be bothered to look it up. If you have it to hand, perhaps you could add it to the discussion please Wardy.

Even when you provide the answer it is academic. Discussion in the Commons or Lords is only discussion. The Act is the Law until amended or repealed, not the discussion.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 12:00 pm 
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Sussex, can you ask your mate Alex to move this thread to "licensing and legal" please.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 12:05 pm 
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I dont think a change in legislation is required, I think they did a pretty good job when they wrote this back in 1976.

Uber started the disruption, and that is exactly what their cookie cutter system is, and traditional companies had to follow suit in order to compete.

I am certain that this current government (without getting too political) would suddenly find time to write new legislation should my argument win the day, but every government since before 1976 have promised to do this when Westminster has the time. After all, the current Secretary of State wrote to my local MP a few month ago and said that cross border hiring gave the consumer a faster service and kept the pricing competitive (he meant cheap)...

Cardiff Council has given me a summary of the legal opinion they acquired from Roy Light (ironically, someone who represents Operators and Authorities) and I can share the summaries hear...

The opinion acknowledges a fact on which I think we can all agree, namely that it is generally recognised that the legislation governing taxis is completely out of date and in urgent need of reform.

In relation to the question of legality of the operation of Uber in Newport and Cardiff the opinion states that there is no direct higher court authority on whether use of the Uber App constitutes making provision for the invitation of bookings in (1) the district in which the App is used or, (2) the district in which the operator controlling the App is based and licensed.

There are conflicting arguments and any potential prosecution based on the interpretation of the legislation given by the GMB would need to persuade the court that the defendant is guilty beyond reasonable doubt, which is a high threshold. There is also the presumption in statutory interpretation that there will be a strict construction of penal laws in favour of the defendant.

Make of that what you will, but IMHO it confirms that where a vehicle is made available and when an operator dispatches a booking to that vehicle while it is another controlled district has yet to be decided by the courts of this land.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 12:14 pm 
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Chris the Fish wrote:
Due to an error in your quote of me, your point would seem to be down to me.

In fact:

Quote from Wardy
How can you say the Dereg Act changes everything?

If that's the case then why does the Deregulation Act insert two options into the 76 Act for operators licensed by the 76 Act?

Also, Hansard records this while the Deregulation Act was being discussed...
On private hires operating in an area where they are not licensed, if they are going there simply for private hire, that may be lawful. However, if they then carry on and park in a stand-by, that would be illegal and that would put more pressure on the local enforcement authorities’ resources. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that must be addressed?

End quote.

The dereg changes things, of course it does.

Your extract from Hansard is a question, to make any sense now, you need the answer to the question to be given too - and I can't be bothered to look it up. If you have it to hand, perhaps you could add it to the discussion please Wardy.

Even when you provide the answer it is academic. Discussion in the Commons or Lords is only discussion. The Act is the Law until amended or repealed, not the discussion.


Apologies if I have not quoted correctly, I am new to this discussion format and learning as I go.

FYI I spent two years studying law to assist myself in arguing a point of law with licensing officers and councils and also when representing drivers so I do know a little of what I speak :wink:

The intention of parliament is indeed a very important part of how legislation is read and understood.

It is in fact called the Mischief Rule whereby the court must understand the mischief that parliament were wishing to address when they wrote the Bill/Act.

The mischief was minicabs working without any enforcement, and that is exactly what is happening with cross border hiring.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 12:33 pm 
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No apology needed, the quote button can be problematic until you're used to it.

You will find that a lot on here have put an awful lot of time into close study of the legislation. In a different area (Not Taxi/PH) my Brother at 40, got a Degree and is now a Barrister. (Strangely not specialising in the part of the Law that originally upset him.)

I would agree that the '75 and '76 were to stop the unregulated "Minicabs" from running riot. But all areas are regulated now. A cross-border Vehicle and Driver are regulated, even if remotely.

Actually the rise of the Social Media "Taxiing Tonight" could be seen as the situation in 1974 happening all over again.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 3:03 pm 
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Dundee City Council
Guidance Note
Section 21 of the Civic Government (Scotland) 1982

Section 21 of the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 makes it an offence for taxi and private hire drivers and operators to work in areas that they are not licensed in. The same section of the Act also provides exceptions to this basic rule. The purpose of this guidance note is to explain what the Council, as the licensing authority, considers Section 21 allows you to do.
It is important to note that this is not intended to be a definitive statement of the law and that it will have no binding effect upon the Police, the Procurator Fiscal or other local authorities. Interpretation of legislation will ultimately be a matter for the courts and, if you are unsure as to what you are or are not allowed to do, you will require to seek your own independent legal advice.

What Can You Do?

1. It is always OK to commence a hire and drop off within the area where you are licensed, always bearing in mind that private hire cars (PHC’s) cannot pick up in the street and must be pre-booked. It is the view of Dundee City Council that a hire commences when the meter is turned on.

2. You can commence a hire which drops off outwith the area you are licensed for if you are in your licensed area when you receive the request from your booking office or, if in a taxi, you receive the request for hire from a passenger picked up within the home licensed area.

3. You can commence a hire outwith your licensed area when that hire drops off in the area you are licensed for provided such request for hire was received by you from your booking office whilst you are in the home licensed area (taxis and PHC’s) or the journey is the homeward part of a “to and from” journey booked through your booking office (taxis and PHC’s) or by a passenger picked up in your home licensed area (taxis only).

4. You can also commence a hire when outwith your licensed area (i) if you were engaged in a hire at the time the request for the subsequent hire was received and the hire you are engaged in when the request was received began or ends within your licensed area or (ii) you were on your way back to your licensed area immediately after a drop off outwith your licensed area. “Immediately” means you must be returning by the quickest, most direct or most expedient route. You cannot under any circumstances accept a request under these conditions from a passenger seeking to hail you in the street.



What You Cannot Do

1. Taxis must only pick up hails in public when operating within their licensed area.
2. You must never commence a hire and drop off outwith your area if you completed a drop off then waited for any period of time outside your area. You must return immediately to your licensed area.
3. You cannot operate outwith your licensed area unless the situations outlined above apply.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 3:54 pm 
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Chris the Fish wrote:
Sussex, can you ask your mate Alex to move this thread to "licensing and legal" please.

Maybe Alex is away for the weekend up north and can’t do it until he gets back to his laptop tomorrow.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 6:33 pm 
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I dont think a change in legislation is required, I think they did a pretty good job when they wrote this back in 1976.


I disagree as so much has changed in the nature of our trade. That act was written before the rise of the App and changes which allow to some extent national operations

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