Taxi Driver Online

UK cab trade debate and advice
It is currently Thu Jul 18, 2024 10:13 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Penalty Points System
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 5:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:51 am
Posts: 49
Hi all

I know we are not the first, but Babergh District LO, have invited us all to a "pre Consultation" meeting over a new licensing policy. Included in the policy proposal is a penalty points system, which seems to be a real stretch of authority on the councils behalf.
Are there any out there that have experience of this system?
How do we fight it?

Many thanks


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 54484
Location: 1066 Country
Sudbury wrote:
How do we fight it?

You think of good reasons why it shouldn't be adopted.

The problems licensing officers have is current legislation in respect of enforcement is incredibly clunky. They can only really suspend or revoke drivers for repeated offences.

The points system is viewed by some to be a fairer way to enforce, giving a number of warnings before suspension or revocation.

So the devil is in the detail. If every breach is given 1 point and it needs 12 in 3 years for a review to take place, then no one really gives a stuff as nothing is ever going to happen, whereas if every breach is 6 points that makes things a tad different.

But to answer the question you pose directly, you must liaise with officers, and if you're still not happy then you must contact and lobby licensing councillors.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 11:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:51 am
Posts: 49
Why would you not want to fight it???

For starters, in what other industry do you pay to go to work in the form of licenses, medicals, courses etc, for which you get something between zero and minimal protection from non paying customers, violent customers, unscrupulous bosses and incompetent licensing officers ?

To now have a paid licensing official sit in judgement over you and whether in their opinion you look untidy (4 points). Hackney Carriage driver leaving the vehicle unattended (4 points). Unnecessarily prolonging a journey (8 points)

There are 110 proposed rules like this, many are 12 points straight off, and 12 points earns you a 28 day suspension after which, 6 points will remain. Who the hell are they to sit in judgement of anything or anybody? They are nothing but hired help after all!

There is no legal type procedure to follow in the proposal for appeals etc. The language used is very ambiguous e.g Hackney Carriage driver leaving the vehicle unattended is open to so much interpretation, some of which can imply you are unable to park it up at night and leave to go home!
If you think that is just plain ridiculous and OTT, experience says otherwise!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 10:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:39 pm
Posts: 1550
Here’s a few questions to ask
1. ​Will there be a written “charge” which will include all the details of the alleged misdemeanor?
2.will the council interview the licence holder in accordance with the provisions of PACE 1984?
3.​Will the provisions of the PACE 1984 be adhered to, when investigating complaints of alleged misconduct and alleged criminal offences?
4. ​How will the gravity of the alleged misdemeanor(s) be determined?

5.​Who will determine the gravity of the alleged misdemeanor(s)?

6.​Will there be sub-categories of misdemeanors?

7.If alleged misdemeanor(s) are committed towards the end of years 1, 2 and 3 will the penalty points be carried forward to years 4, 5 and 6?

8. ​Will there be a “first hearing”? If yes, please provide details; if not, why not?

9.Who will act as Prosecutor?

10.Who will hear the complaint?

11. ​Who will determine the complaint?

12.Who will advise the council on legal issues during the -

a. ​Investigation?

b. ​First hearing?

c. ​Appeal to the committee?

13. ​Will the “Rules of Evidence” apply? If not, why not?

14. ​What defences will be available to the licence holder? Please provide precise details for each category of misdemeanor.


15.If a licence holder has no other alternative than to appeal to the sub-committee:-

a. ​What time period will he or she be given in which to lodge an appeal?

b. ​Will he or she be able to continue in business in the same way as under section 77 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976?

c. ​Will the council pay the Appellant’s costs?

d. ​Will the licence holder be entitled to free legal advice from the outset?

16.​Will the complainant(s) be “compellable” to attend the First/Appeal hearing, give oral evidence, and be open to cross examination? If not, why not?

17. ​Will prosecution witnesses be compellable to attend the First/Appeal hearing, give oral evidence, and be open to cross examination?

18.Will the investigating officer(s) be “compellable” to attend the First/Appeal hearing, give oral evidence, and be open to cross examination? If not, why not?

19. ​Will the council supply the licence holder or his/her legal advisers with evidence by way of advance disclosure? If not, why not?

20. ​What will be the Mens Rea of each alleged misdemeanor?

21.​What standard of proof will be relied upon?

22.What are the “definitions” of the categories of each misdemeanor?

23.​What is the council’s legal basis for the imposition of such a system?

24.Can the council give assurances that the rules of natural justice will be observed? If assurances can be given, please provide details.

25.Why does the council feel it is necessary for them to perform a purely judicial function, thereby usurping the role of the courts?

26. ​How will potential complainants be informed that such a system operates in their area?

27.​Does the council fear that there will be spurious complaints? If not, why not?

28. ​Please provide details of the discretion that will be entrusted to an enforcement office when deciding whether or not to issue penalty points. Will there be written criteria and/or guidelines to which he or she will have to adhere? If not, why not?

29.​Is the council saying that the accumulation of penalty points is “reasonable cause” for which to suspend or revoke a licence, and not the individual offences themselves? That being the case, would not the licence holder have to appeal all of the alleged “offences” to the magistrates court at first instance, in order to determine whether or not the council had reasonable cause to suspend, revoke or refuse to renew a licence?

30.Is there not a risk of double jeopardy? If not, why not?

31.Is there not a real likelihood of bias? If not, why not?

32.Is there not a real risk of an intermingling of functions? If not, why not?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:11 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:51 am
Posts: 49
I am familiar with those questions but has anyone used them and to what effect?

I am aware this penalty points system is being tried or attempted by many authorities. Northants West fought and lost from what I saw, Brighton have something developing from what I understand.

I am also curious as to who's draught policy our lot have plagiarised, as not clever enough to have thought this up themselves


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:39 pm
Posts: 1550
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19698


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 3:33 pm 
Online

Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:27 pm
Posts: 19728
Sudbury wrote:

I am also curious as to who's draught policy our lot have plagiarised, as not clever enough to have thought this up themselves
The penalty point system has been used here for years. It was a copy of someone elses system but we don't know who's. There are bits in it that simply don't apply to our area. Also some of the wording is vague and although every time they put a new policy out for consultation and I object to some bits they have never been changed.
For instance, you get so many points for a "bald" tyre. I ask them to define "bald" in milimeters but to no avail. You get points for a "large" dent but no definition of how large is "large".

_________________
Grandad,


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 8:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 54484
Location: 1066 Country
Quote:
Why would you not want to fight it???

Because it's a great way to get rid of the sh**.

It's a great way to get those who might consider it ok to try it on from time to time, to reconsider.

And because for 95% of the trade it will make no difference whatsoever.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 8:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 54484
Location: 1066 Country
Quote:
For starters, in what other industry do you pay to go to work in the form of licenses, medicals, courses etc, for which you get something between zero and minimal protection from non paying customers, violent customers, unscrupulous bosses and incompetent licensing officers ?

What's that got to do with the pros and cons of penalty points?

Or are you saying because of the above rules don't apply to us anymore? :-k

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 8:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 54484
Location: 1066 Country
Quote:
There are 110 proposed rules like this, many are 12 points straight off, and 12 points earns you a 28 day suspension after which, 6 points will remain. Who the hell are they to sit in judgement of anything or anybody? They are nothing but hired help after all!

They have a duty to sit in judgment. Now you may not like that, and some LO's may be rubbish at their jobs, but that's the way legislation is written.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 8:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 54484
Location: 1066 Country
Quote:
There is no legal type procedure to follow in the proposal for appeals etc. The language used is very ambiguous e.g Hackney Carriage driver leaving the vehicle unattended is open to so much interpretation, some of which can imply you are unable to park it up at night and leave to go home!
If you think that is just plain ridiculous and OTT, experience says otherwise!

Have you discussed your concerns with those licensing officers as part of the consultation?

As for appeals, well ask them to add an internal appeals process.

_________________
IDFIMH


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 47 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group