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Can Kids stay in pushchairs
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Author:  JGS [ Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Can Kids stay in pushchairs
I drive an E7 Hackney in Truro, Cornwall. Our own company operates 4 and there are about 7 similar vehicles operating in our City.
In July we received a letter from an "Accredited Paralegal" in the legal department of our local council.

Quote:
"It has come to my attention that Taxi and Private Hire drivers are loading pushchairs into the rear of their vehicles without first placing the child in a legal child seat.

It is illegal to allow a child to remain in it’s pushchair whilst being transported in a vehicle.

Drivers are liable for prosecution by the Police if the aforementioned is breached.”


As a result we had a letter from our Employer stating that if we went against this we would not be insured.

This has caused a great deal of complaint from passengers. Has this been an issue raised elsewhere? I believe that it has a number of discussion points:

1. I understand that we have an exemption to prosecution concerning Children and Seatbelts exists if we drive Licensed taxis and licensed hire cars in which the rear seats are separated from the driver by a fixed partition, in Regulation 9 Motor Vehicles (Wearing of Seat Belts) Regulations 1993.
So can the Police prosecute us?

2. If we are telling a passenger that she/he cannot allow their child to stay in the pushchair, does our company then have to provide a suitable baby or child seat.

3. If we are telling a passenger that she/he cannot allow their child to stay in the pushchair, and there was an accident, in which a child was injured or worse, could we as individuals, or our company, be sued as a result of our advice?

4. As in number 3, if they were injured whilst wearing an adult-belt or were in a child seat that was later shown to be unsuitable, could we be sued on the basis that we placed the child in that position?

5. If a Mother refuses to remove her child from a push-chair, are we then entitled to refuse to carry the fare?


I would be interested in any comments, especially concerning the practices in other parts of the country
[/list][/list]
Author:  Guest [ Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
1 yes
2 no
3 yes
4 debatable

it is extremely dangerous carryiing a pushcair in the way you advocate the vehicle was neither built nor designed for this

with regard to people in wheelchairs it is also dangerous though it is accepted as best practical means, as the chair is not one designed for that purpose.

personally I would have though what your council said was common sence though the longer I read this site the more I realise sense is not common amongst taxi drivers and rarer still amongst Private hire drivers.

hope this helps.
Author:  Nidge2 [ Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can Kids stay in pushchairs
JGS wrote:
I drive an E7 Hackney in Truro, Cornwall. Our own company operates 4 and there are about 7 similar vehicles operating in our City.
In July we received a letter from an "Accredited Paralegal" in the legal department of our local council.

Quote:
"It has come to my attention that Taxi and Private Hire drivers are loading pushchairs into the rear of their vehicles without first placing the child in a legal child seat.

It is illegal to allow a child to remain in it’s pushchair whilst being transported in a vehicle.

Drivers are liable for prosecution by the Police if the aforementioned is breached.”


As a result we had a letter from our Employer stating that if we went against this we would not be insured.

This has caused a great deal of complaint from passengers. Has this been an issue raised elsewhere? I believe that it has a number of discussion points:

1. I understand that we have an exemption to prosecution concerning Children and Seatbelts exists if we drive Licensed taxis and licensed hire cars in which the rear seats are separated from the driver by a fixed partition, in Regulation 9 Motor Vehicles (Wearing of Seat Belts) Regulations 1993.
So can the Police prosecute us?

2. If we are telling a passenger that she/he cannot allow their child to stay in the pushchair, does our company then have to provide a suitable baby or child seat.

3. If we are telling a passenger that she/he cannot allow their child to stay in the pushchair, and there was an accident, in which a child was injured or worse, could we as individuals, or our company, be sued as a result of our advice?

4. As in number 3, if they were injured whilst wearing an adult-belt or were in a child seat that was later shown to be unsuitable, could we be sued on the basis that we placed the child in that position?

5. If a Mother refuses to remove her child from a push-chair, are we then entitled to refuse to carry the fare?


I would be interested in any comments, especially concerning the practices in other parts of the country
[/list][/list]


A few years ago out LO cracked down on black cabs carrying pushchairs with children still in them, there are no anchor points for the pushchairs to be secured.
Author:  Sussex [ Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
It would be interesting to hear what you LO has to say on this subject, or for that matter NATPHLEO. It might even be worth e-mailing them. Their link is on TDO links page, funnily enough.

I would answer your questions;
1) I would say the police wont prosecute you if the partition clause is accurate. To be honest I have never come across that.
2) If your company gets a job for a pushchair, then really they should explain at the time to the customer the council's rules. As for child seats, I know some firms have them for school or social services work, but I doubt they have them for general work.
3) Both you as the driver, and your firm as the 'main contractor' are liable against any claim.
4) I think we can, and often do, get sued for all manner of things. This would just be another avenue to sue.
5) Yes, if you think a situation could be dangerous, then you are within your rights to refuse. But I bet the next lad will take them. :sad:

I think the best bet for you is to try and get this story in the local rag. Then if the council stick to their guns, you can just point any problems/complaints in their direction.
Author:  JGS [ Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Supporting Information on Exception to Kids in Seatbelts
Quoted from book, "The Traffic Officers Companion" 13th Edition Author Gordon Wilson BA(Law), MSc, Former Surperintendent of Warwickshire Constabulary. Written as a practical interpretation. From page 62
Quote:
"A person must not without reasonable excuse -
drive on a road a -
motor vehicle (reg S15 (3)) -
where a child under 14 years is in the rear of the vehicle
and any seatbelt is fitted in the rear
unless the child is wearing a child restraint
(or an adult seat belt if 12 years or over and 150cm in height or over) -
except
#a child under 1 year old in a carry cot restrained by straps
#a child of 3 years or more for whom a child restraint is not available in the front or rear and who is wearing an adult belt
#disable child wearing disabled person's belt
#holder of a medical certificate
# licensed taxis and licensed hire cars in which (in each case) the rear seats are separated from the driver, eg fixed partitions

I have forwarded copies of the letter I sent to our District Council (who have acknowledged it without response so far), to NATPHLEO and Hackney Carriage Association for their views.
Currently I am advising Mothers with Push-Chairs of the Councils Letter and letting them decide how their child should travel. In the absence of available child-seats 5 out of 5 have opted to keep the child strapped in the push-chair, and I have been using the wheel-chair belt as a restraint on the chair.
In “Hughes Guide” they attach an additional explanatory note to the Regulation 9 Motor Vehicles (Wearing of Seat Belts) Regulations 1993 concerning the main changes made by these Regulations and The Road Traffic Act 1988 (Amendment) Regulations 1992, regarding children.
Quote:
(d) An adult belt is now treated as suitable for a child aged 3 years or over even if no booster cushion is used. Previously there was provision for a child aged 1, 2 or 3 years in the rear to use an adult belt in conjunction with a booster cushion. There is no equivalent provision in these Regulations. Accordingly, a child aged under 3 years will not be required to wear an available adult belt even if a booster cushion is also available.
Author:  Guest [ Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Supporting Information on Exception to Kids in Seatbelts
JGS wrote:
Quoted from book, "The Traffic Officers Companion" 13th Edition Author Gordon Wilson BA(Law), MSc, Former Surperintendent of Warwickshire Constabulary. Written as a practical interpretation. From page 62
Quote:
"A person must not without reasonable excuse -
drive on a road a -
motor vehicle (reg S15 (3)) -
where a child under 14 years is in the rear of the vehicle
and any seatbelt is fitted in the rear
unless the child is wearing a child restraint
(or an adult seat belt if 12 years or over and 150cm in height or over) -
except
#a child under 1 year old in a carry cot restrained by straps
#a child of 3 years or more for whom a child restraint is not available in the front or rear and who is wearing an adult belt
#disable child wearing disabled person's belt
#holder of a medical certificate
# licensed taxis and licensed hire cars in which (in each case) the rear seats are separated from the driver, eg fixed partitions

I have forwarded copies of the letter I sent to our District Council (who have acknowledged it without response so far), to NATPHLEO and Hackney Carriage Association for their views.
Currently I am advising Mothers with Push-Chairs of the Councils Letter and letting them decide how their child should travel. In the absence of available child-seats 5 out of 5 have opted to keep the child strapped in the push-chair, and I have been using the wheel-chair belt as a restraint on the chair.
In “Hughes Guide” they attach an additional explanatory note to the Regulation 9 Motor Vehicles (Wearing of Seat Belts) Regulations 1993 concerning the main changes made by these Regulations and The Road Traffic Act 1988 (Amendment) Regulations 1992, regarding children.
Quote:
(d) An adult belt is now treated as suitable for a child aged 3 years or over even if no booster cushion is used. Previously there was provision for a child aged 1, 2 or 3 years in the rear to use an adult belt in conjunction with a booster cushion. There is no equivalent provision in these Regulations. Accordingly, a child aged under 3 years will not be required to wear an available adult belt even if a booster cushion is also available.



deary me I hope there is only one like you in Cornwall!
Author:  Sussex [ Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well thankfully there is only one of you in Yorkshire. :shock:

The issue is very important, because we all know that drivers up and down the country are doing different things to what they perhaps should be.

So if some clarity on this issue can be found, shouldn't that be welcomed?
Author:  Guest [ Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:21 am ]
Post subject: 
Sussex wrote:
Well thankfully there is only one of you in Yorkshire. :shock:

The issue is very important, because we all know that drivers up and down the country are doing different things to what they perhaps should be.

So if some clarity on this issue can be found, shouldn't that be welcomed?


I think all taxi and private hire drivers beccome safety experts after the first claim.

sussex would you leave a pram rolling around the back of a cab, and ask if this was legal?

perhaps you would.
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