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Private land - again!!!
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Author:  Doc G [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Private land - again!!!
Lots of help and comment needed (again!)

Scenario: Local PHV and out of area Hackneys both plying for hire at local nightclub on private land. Our main argument was the insurance issue, PHV being void because they are plying for hire (irrespective of the private land issue) and Out of area Hackneys void because they are not licensed.

What follows are abridged extracts from a letter received from the police, regarding the above.

Comment 1:

“ Insurance is covered for third party risk therefore passengers are not placed at financial risk. All drivers and vehicles are licensed; to infer they are at physical risk is without foundation.”

Elsewhere in reply, on the insurance issue again: “no apparent risk to public”.

Q1: Is this a fact or bullsh*t???


Comment 2:

All Out of Area (OOA) taxi’s are Hackney Carriages – covered for public hire. The grey area is with touting Private Hire drivers. OOA drivers are no less likely to be involved in an accident than PH drivers – if enforced, prosecute for no insurance.

I think, by implication, that they are saying that it is ok fo OOA Hackneys to ply for hire, if on private land. I know that this is not correct, I pointed out the Eastbourne ruling, but they are wriggling like anything. anyone know of any more recent case law to back this up?

I will be very gratefull for any help

TIA
____________________________________________________________
DocG
Author:  Sussex [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
The insurance quotes are more than likely ok, as all passengers will be covered. Doesn't apply to the driver and vehicle.

The plying for hire issue is ok for local cabs if permission is granted by the landowner, and the cabs don't have a return to the nearest rank condition on their license.

The issue that needs to be addressed, and I'm not convinced the police are the ones to sort this, is the unlicensed hirings.

If the LOs wont get off their butts and enforce what they are paid to enforce, then maybe a complaint to the Ombudsman is a way forward.

What have licensing councillors to say for themselves? :?
Author:  Doc G [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
I am being devils advocate a little here, but by "The plying for hire issue is ok for local cabs if permission is granted by the landowner" I take it you can only mean locally licensed Hackneys only - not PHV and out of area Hackneys?

The club is also saying "that they are investigating the "pre-booked" aspect. We are led to believe that a "contract to supply" or a "permit" may cover this matter"
Anybody got any thoughts on the legality of this approach?

The comment that "The issue that needs to be addressed, and I'm not convinced the police are the ones to sort this, is the unlicensed hirings." hits the nail on the head, but every b*gger is wriggling!

The comment that "the cabs don't have a return to the nearest rank condition on their license." anyone have case law or something on that? its badly needed as we are being accused of operating illegally ourselves(??!!!)



____________________________________________________________
DocG
Author:  wannabeeahack [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
if a freephone was installed at the nightclub to the operating base (be it in the same LA or not) and cabs/PHV were booked/despatched over the radio with bookers name, would that be legal?...
Author:  Sussex [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:08 am ]
Post subject: 
Doc G wrote:
I am being devils advocate a little here, but by "The plying for hire issue is ok for local cabs if permission is granted by the landowner" I take it you can only mean locally licensed Hackneys only - not PHV and out of area Hackneys?

Yes, hackney are only allowed to ply in their own areas. But of course can take pre-booked work outside of it, and can sit on private land anywhere.

If in your case the out-of-town hackneys, and the local PH, are taking work without a pre-booking then that's not permitted under the act. :wink:
Author:  Sussex [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:09 am ]
Post subject: 
Doc G wrote:
The club is also saying "that they are investigating the "pre-booked" aspect. We are led to believe that a "contract to supply" or a "permit" may cover this matter"
Anybody got any thoughts on the legality of this approach?

As mentioned before, they have to adhere to their licensing conditions, and a name, address, time, destination etc must be shown on the booking.
Author:  Sussex [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:11 am ]
Post subject: 
Doc G wrote:
The comment that "the cabs don't have a return to the nearest rank condition on their license." anyone have case law or something on that? its badly needed as we are being accused of operating illegally ourselves(??!!!)

It's not really case law, but many councils have that provision written into their hackney bylaws. It might be worth asking the council concerned.
Author:  wannabeeahack [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:18 am ]
Post subject: 
Sussex wrote:
Doc G wrote:
I am being devils advocate a little here, but by "The plying for hire issue is ok for local cabs if permission is granted by the landowner" I take it you can only mean locally licensed Hackneys only - not PHV and out of area Hackneys?

Yes, hackney are only allowed to ply in their own areas. But of course can take pre-booked work outside of it, and can sit on private land anywhere.

If in your case the out-of-town hackneys, and the local PH, are taking work without a pre-booking then that's not permitted under the act. :wink:



it was always said that a hackney or PH out of thier own area both became PH and had to be pre-booked

HOWEVER.............define "pre booked" please...... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Author:  Doc G [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:48 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
define "pre booked" please


This is the problem, I am trying to prove that "prebooked" should be properly recorded name, destination etc, not an open invitation from the club to ply for hire towards random people, which is blatently the case here.

Obviously anyone can "wait" on private land, but I have a real problem trying to convince the council that those individuals should not be on "public display" and by there presence advertising their availability to be hired.
Author:  mancityfan [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
i would like to see the letter from the police, can you post it on here.
Author:  wannabeeahack [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
Doc G wrote:
Quote:
define "pre booked" please


This is the problem, I am trying to prove that "prebooked" should be properly recorded name, destination etc, not an open invitation from the club to ply for hire towards random people, which is blatently the case here.

Obviously anyone can "wait" on private land, but I have a real problem trying to convince the council that those individuals should not be on "public display" and by there presence advertising their availability to be hired.


i actually meant is there a definition of the time relating to the PRE in "pre" booked, can a PHV driver take a booking for 2 minutes hence, write it down in his book and be legal? (it would be PREbooked), can he accept a booking, drive 10 yds, drive back and be classed as "booked" from the time of his original conversation with the punter? can he tell the punter to ring his landline and take the diverted call and PREbooked...

the law doesnt seem to want to define PREbooked, im sure a sharp brief would shoot holes in some LO cases for "touting"





The following guidelines are issued to assist private hire drivers in their
understanding of what they may and may not do.

1. You must not draw attention to yourself as being available for hire. Any
act or gesture accompanied by a conversation with a member of the
public suggesting you are available for hire without a prior booking from
your licensed operator will be seen as unlawful.

2. If approached by a potential passenger you may hand out a business
card bearing the number of your licensed operator.

3. Drivers must not accept bookings from anyone other than their licensed
operator.

4. You are not to allow any passenger to enter your vehicle without first
having received a booking via your licensed operator.

5. Any vehicle MOVEMENT with a passenger on board without a booking
allocated by a licensed operator is illegal.

6. You must wear your PCO badge at all times whilst working in order to
identify yourself as a licensed driver.
Author:  wannabeeahack [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
however, it doesnt cover 100% what happens when the driver is the owner and operator...
Author:  Sussex [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
wannabeeahack wrote:
it was always said that a hackney or PH out of thier own area both became PH and had to be pre-booked

A hackney is a hackney no matter where it is. But is only allowed to ply in a public place within it's licensing district. It is never a PH.
Author:  Sussex [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
wannabeeahack wrote:
HOWEVER.............define "pre booked" please...... :lol: :lol: :lol:

A contract between a licensed operator and a customer prior to the customer getting into a licensed vehicle.
Author:  wannabeeahack [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sussex wrote:
wannabeeahack wrote:
HOWEVER.............define "pre booked" please...... :lol: :lol: :lol:

A contract between a licensed operator and a customer prior to the customer getting into a licensed vehicle.


prior meaning before entering the vehicle?

so how can a PHV have been "nicked" by LO's when booking thru the car window?...if the driver is the operator?...
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