Berwick Issue; Sledge Hammer to Crack a Nut Perhaps?

gusmac · **Posted:** Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:05 pm

Sussex wrote:

Maybe I missed something but as far as I can see there's nothing stopping a Scottish hackney or PH working the Berwick opt-out in Newcastle.

Just the CGSA 1982 doesn't allow it.

Quote:

Offences

21(1) If any person -

(a) operates, or permits the operation of, a taxi within an area in respect of which its operation requires to be but is not licensed or the driver
requires to be but is not licensed; or
(b) picks up passengers in, or permits passengers to be picked up by, a
private hire car within an area in respect of which its operation requires
to be but is not licensed or the driver requires to be but is not licensed, that person shall be guilty of an offence and liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £2,500.
(2) Subsection (1) above does not apply to the operation of a taxi or private hire car within an area in respect of which its operation or its driver is not licensed if the request for its hiring was received by its driver (otherwise than in a public place from the person to be conveyed in it, or a person acting on his behalf, for a journey beginning there and then) whilst -
(a) in the area or in that part thereof in respect of which its operation and
its driver are licensed;
(b) engaged on hire on a journey which began in that area or part or will
end there; or
(c) returning to that area or part immediately following completion of a
journey on hire.

MR T · **Joined:** Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:26 pm **Posts:** 8529

J D.. I see you are dwelling in the past as usual...... the statement you refer to is from the minutes of a meeting... were I was asked to give my members' views on whether or not private hire drivers need to take a test.... obviously the answer would differ from district to district.... the private hire systems in Sefton are pretty good... they not only give you work they also have in built Sat Nav.. that talks you from street to street..... and lot's of little extras...... in a few years they won't even need the driver..... but I also strongly stated that a hackney driver definitely needs to be tested on the roads around him.....

I could have said No They definitely need to be tested... but that was not the view of the people I represent.....

MR T · **Joined:** Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:26 pm **Posts:** 8529

agabbycabbie wrote:

MR T wrote:

Brummie Cabbie wrote:

MR T wrote:

Now tell me what is wrong with my next statement.... Berwick enforcement officers have a van, which they use in other areas to stop and check licensed Berwick Hackney's.

I am aware that Berwick enforcement officers use a van outside their LA & I believe it has some nice flashing lights too.

Stopping & checking Berwick licensed Hackneys outside their own LA sounds a bit 'iffy'.

But observing transgressions by Berwick Hackneys & then acting upon corroborated evidence (by a second enforcement officer) on the following working day, would seem OK.

the only person allowed to stop a hackney or private hire: is a police officer

and VOSA officer or marked VOSA vehicle

I think you will find that a police officer actually stops you

Brummie Cabbie · **Posted:** Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:09 pm

gusmac wrote:

Sussex wrote:

Maybe I missed something but as far as I can see there's nothing stopping a Scottish hackney or PH working the Berwick opt-out in Newcastle.

Just the CGSA 1982 doesn't allow it;

Offences

21(1) If any person -

(a) operates, or permits the operation of, a taxi within an area in respect of which its operation requires to be but is not licensed or the driver requires to be but is not licensed; or
(b) picks up passengers in, or permits passengers to be picked up by, a private hire car within an area in respect of which its operation requires to be but is not licensed or the driver requires to be but is not licensed, that person shall be guilty of an offence and liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £2,500.
(2) Subsection (1) above does not apply to the operation of a taxi or private hire car within an area in respect of which its operation or its driver is not licensed if the request for its hiring was received by its driver (otherwise than in a public place from the person to be conveyed in it, or a person acting on his behalf, for a journey beginning there and then) whilst -
(a) in the area or in that part thereof in respect of which its operation and its driver are licensed;
(b) engaged on hire on a journey which began in that area or part or will end there; or
(c) returning to that area or part immediately following completion of a journey on hire.

It does not surprise me in the least that the Scots have got it right, whereas our bunch of muppets at Westminster can't!
It's time Miss Piggy left No 10!

Sussex · **Posted:** Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:10 pm

gusmac wrote:

Sussex wrote:

Maybe I missed something but as far as I can see there's nothing stopping a Scottish hackney or PH working the Berwick opt-out in Newcastle.

Just the CGSA 1982 doesn't allow it.

That act only applies in Scotland, the England version specifically allows Scottish taxi/PH an exemption from the English act.

Brummie Cabbie · **Posted:** Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:33 pm

JD wrote:

The real issue is enforcement because it doesn't really matter how many vehicles from Berwick descend on Newcastle the problem of illegal plying for hire will not go away, either in Newcastle or anywhere else.

The focus should be on enforcement because those doing the enforcing have proved year after year that they are not up to the job. The only solution therefore is to rethink the whole concept of enforcing and set up a complete new body that will enforce the problem of illegal plying for hire throughout the country with vigour and determination.

The problem is obvious and it all comes down to enforcement, the cab trade should have addressed this problem years ago but it has been too preoccupied with quantity controls.

Yes. yes, yes; enforcement is the number one issue.

But, if in 32 years it has never been carried out effectively in the vast majority of LAs, does it not seem logical that;
the law is unenforceable because of the vast quantity of transgressions,
OR
enforcement officers generally cannot be bothered to do the job & councillors will not kick their butts,
OR
probably a combination of both of the above.

Whatever the reason, time has proved that the 1976 Act, & now the 1998 London Act are both unenfoceable.

And being unenforceable, the Acts are an ass. They were the legalisation of something that should never have been made legal. We already had a vehicle hire service that was capable of being hired by any type of pre-booking.

It's just like the debate about cannabis; do we don't we make it legal or illegal? Why do we have such a debate, when any sane person would always say no, it should be illegal?

But governments are 'namby pamby' & fudge most difficult issues, as they have this one, & will continue to fudge this & other issues.

Brummie Cabbie · **Posted:** Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:38 pm

Sussex wrote:

Brummie Cabbie wrote:

If a Scottish Hackney was working in Newcastle on a HC only dispatch system, what would it be? An English Hackney?

I'm not sure the dispatch system in this case is 100% hackney.

If it is not 100% Hackney, then they need an Operator Licence, because the inference is that they must have at least one PH on the sytem, & I am led to believe that they are unlicensed operators.

gusmac · **Posted:** Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:03 pm

Sussex wrote:

gusmac wrote:

Sussex wrote:

Maybe I missed something but as far as I can see there's nothing stopping a Scottish hackney or PH working the Berwick opt-out in Newcastle.

Just the CGSA 1982 doesn't allow it.

That act only applies in Scotland, the England version specifically allows Scottish taxi/PH an exemption from the English act.

I think you will find the act covers vehicles and drivers licensed in Scotland, regardless of where they may be in Scotland, England or Wales.

CGSA 1982 wrote:

Journeys in England and Wales by vehicles and drivers licensed under this Act
16 In Section 75 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976
(saving for certain vehicles from requirements of Part II of that Act as to private hire vehicles), after subsection (2) there shall be inserted:-
“(2A) Where a vehicle is being used as a taxi or private hire car, paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of section 46(1) of this Act shall not apply to the use or driving of the vehicle or the employment of a person to drive it if -
(a) a licence issued under section 10 of the Civic Government (Scotland)
Act 1982 for its use as a taxi or, as the case may be, private hire car is
then in force and,
(b) the driver holds a licence issued under section 13 of that Act for the
driving of taxis or, as the case may be, private hire cars.

In this subsection, ‘private hire car’ and ‘taxi’ have the same meaning as in sections 10 to 22 of the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982”.

If the licence is in force, then the 1982 act applies.
If the licence is not in force, then it is not a taxi at all.

JD · **Joined:** Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:53 pm **Posts:** 10381

MR T wrote:

J D.. I see you are dwelling in the past as usual. the statement you refer to is from the minutes of a meeting were I was asked to give my members' views on whether or not private hire drivers need to take a test.

I remember it well since your opinion was reported in the Liverpool Echo but I suppose some will be wondering why you made such a statement in the first place?

Quote:

obviously the answer would differ from district to district.

Is this an excuse for your hypocritical stance in respect of Berwick having no knowledge test? If we examine your comments below we can clearly see that they were general comments which applied to the private hire trade as a whole. Have a look!

**I can honestly say that it is a barrier to this trade that is not needed.**

**The technology available renders it obsolete.**

Which trade might that be?

It is rather obvious that you focused your attention only on the single aspect of a street knowledge test? What about all the other ingredients, or are there no other ingredients?

Quote:

Trevor Jones, of the North West Taxi Association, said: "As a person who worked a private hire car and a hackney cab for 20 years before the test was implemented,

**I can honestly say that it is a barrier to this trade that is not needed. The technology available renders it obsolete.**

So is a knowledge test a barrier to the trade as you said in April 2005, or isn't it?

And what sets an enormous location such as Sefton apart from a tiny location such as Berwick?

Regards

JD

MR T · **Joined:** Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:26 pm **Posts:** 8529

Now now Graham ... don't try to make out you don't know the difference between private hire and hackney...... the Response was to a questionnaire.... regarding private hire... . I think hackney drivers should have a test.... particularly Berwick..... and so do the Councillors in Sefton..... and I think they will do for some time to come. :lol:

captain cab · **Posted:** Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:49 pm

JD wrote:

captain cab wrote:

There appears to be a total unwillingness by Berwick to solve the situation, I think this could have been solved by bringing in a localised knowledge test and even an insistance that the licensing of vehicles is physically done within Berwick's civic centre as opposed to by phone and mail.

It has been alleged that Berwick dont see the point in a localised knowledge because the licensees arent using the vehicles there anyway. Now if that isnt utter contempt to the situation, I dont know what is.

The people who chose to license there vehicles in Berwick and Derwentside, did so in my opinion because of the easier licensing conditions for the person and vehicle.

I'm all for strict quality controls, which sometimes doesn't meet with the approval of some but no matter what, I am always consistent in my approach. I don't think knowledge tests should be limited to remembering just streets and points of interest, I think they should be fully comprehensive in a wide range of subjects, including legislation and other areas.

I must however draw your attention to something you said not so long ago about knowledge tests for private hire drivers. Your colleague Mr T opined that private hire drivers in Sefton should not be subject to knowledge tests because they were not needed and you agreed with him.

Yet in this debate you have taken a different stance, albeit that in this particular case the drivers are licensed in Berwick but they operate as "private hire drivers" in other areas.

There is a contradiction in terms in what you said then and what you say now. How do you explain that? Here is what both you and Mr T said about Sefton.
_________________________

Trevor Jones, of the North West Taxi Association, said: "As a person who worked a private hire car and a hackney cab for 20 years before the test was implemented, I can honestly say that it is a barrier to this trade that is not needed. The technology available renders it obsolete.

"A training day would be more appropriate, as we find that some drivers who have passed the test cannot even change a wheel."
_____________________

Captain cab.

If I can add my ten penneth.

Why should PH take a knowledge test at all?

The work should be pre booked, and if a driver, even a new driver, cannot get a passenger from a to b, then is he or she in the right job?

I dont see it as a drop in standards, more of a case of a standard that shouldnt have been imposed in the first place.

regards

Captain cab

The vehicles licensed in Berwick and used elsewhere are hackney carriages, not private hire.

CC

MR T · **Joined:** Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:26 pm **Posts:** 8529

captain cab wrote:

JD wrote:

captain cab wrote:

There appears to be a total unwillingness by Berwick to solve the situation, I think this could have been solved by bringing in a localised knowledge test and even an insistance that the licensing of vehicles is physically done within Berwick's civic centre as opposed to by phone and mail.

It has been alleged that Berwick dont see the point in a localised knowledge because the licensees arent using the vehicles there anyway. Now if that isnt utter contempt to the situation, I dont know what is.

The people who chose to license there vehicles in Berwick and Derwentside, did so in my opinion because of the easier licensing conditions for the person and vehicle.

I'm all for strict quality controls, which sometimes doesn't meet with the approval of some but no matter what, I am always consistent in my approach. I don't think knowledge tests should be limited to remembering just streets and points of interest, I think they should be fully comprehensive in a wide range of subjects, including legislation and other areas.

I must however draw your attention to something you said not so long ago about knowledge tests for private hire drivers. Your colleague Mr T opined that private hire drivers in Sefton should not be subject to knowledge tests because they were not needed and you agreed with him.

Yet in this debate you have taken a different stance, albeit that in this particular case the drivers are licensed in Berwick but they operate as "private hire drivers" in other areas.

There is a contradiction in terms in what you said then and what you say now. How do you explain that? Here is what both you and Mr T said about Sefton.
_________________________

Trevor Jones, of the North West Taxi Association, said: "As a person who worked a private hire car and a hackney cab for 20 years before the test was implemented, I can honestly say that it is a barrier to this trade that is not needed. The technology available renders it obsolete.

"A training day would be more appropriate, as we find that some drivers who have passed the test cannot even change a wheel."
_____________________

Captain cab.

If I can add my ten penneth.

Why should PH take a knowledge test at all?

The work should be pre booked, and if a driver, even a new driver, cannot get a passenger from a to b, then is he or she in the right job?

I dont see it as a drop in standards, more of a case of a standard that shouldnt have been imposed in the first place.

regards

Captain cab

The vehicles licensed in Berwick and used elsewhere are hackney carriages, not private hire.

CC

He knows that.... he's just playing stupid

captain cab · **Posted:** Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:55 pm

MR T wrote:

captain cab wrote:

JD wrote:

captain cab wrote:

There appears to be a total unwillingness by Berwick to solve the situation, I think this could have been solved by bringing in a localised knowledge test and even an insistance that the licensing of vehicles is physically done within Berwick's civic centre as opposed to by phone and mail.

It has been alleged that Berwick dont see the point in a localised knowledge because the licensees arent using the vehicles there anyway. Now if that isnt utter contempt to the situation, I dont know what is.

The people who chose to license there vehicles in Berwick and Derwentside, did so in my opinion because of the easier licensing conditions for the person and vehicle.

I'm all for strict quality controls, which sometimes doesn't meet with the approval of some but no matter what, I am always consistent in my approach. I don't think knowledge tests should be limited to remembering just streets and points of interest, I think they should be fully comprehensive in a wide range of subjects, including legislation and other areas.

I must however draw your attention to something you said not so long ago about knowledge tests for private hire drivers. Your colleague Mr T opined that private hire drivers in Sefton should not be subject to knowledge tests because they were not needed and you agreed with him.

Yet in this debate you have taken a different stance, albeit that in this particular case the drivers are licensed in Berwick but they operate as "private hire drivers" in other areas.

There is a contradiction in terms in what you said then and what you say now. How do you explain that? Here is what both you and Mr T said about Sefton.
_________________________

Trevor Jones, of the North West Taxi Association, said: "As a person who worked a private hire car and a hackney cab for 20 years before the test was implemented, I can honestly say that it is a barrier to this trade that is not needed. The technology available renders it obsolete.

"A training day would be more appropriate, as we find that some drivers who have passed the test cannot even change a wheel."
_____________________

Captain cab.

If I can add my ten penneth.

Why should PH take a knowledge test at all?

The work should be pre booked, and if a driver, even a new driver, cannot get a passenger from a to b, then is he or she in the right job?

I dont see it as a drop in standards, more of a case of a standard that shouldnt have been imposed in the first place.

regards

Captain cab

The vehicles licensed in Berwick and used elsewhere are hackney carriages, not private hire.

CC

He knows that.... he's just playing stupid

Your right I guess MrT.....and I think I guessed that....just like your insane game of hangman :lol:

CC

JD · **Joined:** Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:53 pm **Posts:** 10381

MR T wrote:

Now now Graham ... don't try to make out you don't know the difference between private hire and hackney...... the Response was to a questionnaire.... regarding private hire... . I think hackney drivers should have a test.... particularly Berwick..... and so do the Councillors in Sefton..... and I think they will do for some time to come. :lol:

The fact is that you are on record as categorically stating, "private hire shouldn't have a knowledge test".

And just in case you have forgot here's a timely reminder.

http://taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1814

Regards

JD

captain cab · **Posted:** Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:02 pm

JD wrote:

MR T wrote:

Now now Graham ... don't try to make out you don't know the difference between private hire and hackney...... the Response was to a questionnaire.... regarding private hire... . I think hackney drivers should have a test.... particularly Berwick..... and so do the Councillors in Sefton..... and I think they will do for some time to come. :lol:

The fact is that you are on record as categorically stating, "private hire shouldn't have a knowledge test".

And just in case you have forgot here's a timely reminder.

http://taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1814

Regards

JD

Why should a person who accepts a pre-booking knowing where he's picking up from and where he's going to...have to do a knowledge test?

CC

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