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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 9:33 am 
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presumably all the applications that were heard by the council and refused after the council dished out the 27 licenses to the ipl.
i beleive a number of these guys took a refund and another group put into the pot and took them to court first case up was mr Donald,it would then have been agreed that all the other cases were identical and should be sisted to await the outcome of one case.
this is done to reduce costs and stop the court being flooded by identical cases.


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 10:11 am 
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ALI T wrote:
presumably all the applications that were heard by the council and refused after the council dished out the 27 licenses to the ipl.
i beleive a number of these guys took a refund and another group put into the pot and took them to court first case up was mr Donald,it would then have been agreed that all the other cases were identical and should be sisted to await the outcome of one case.
this is done to reduce costs and stop the court being flooded by identical cases.

So, given the judgment, only those who would have been in the first 27 and who have paid their money to have their case sisted would be in line for a licence?
Less than 17 then?


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 11:08 am 
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i have no idea how many are in court just now

suffice to say if the council acted not in accordance with the law then anyone who was coerced to take their money back,or subsequently refused a license,whether they went to court or not is neither here nor there.
the council acted out with the terms of the act and those guys on the ipl shouldn't have been granted ahead of those with live apps

imo that leaves the door open at least for the time being.

and i thought you said you had no knowledge of any sisted cases and yet you know the exact number 17
strange this denial thing :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 1:25 pm 
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To all those who made bona fide applications but were coerced into taking their money back. Make new applications and if necessary take the council into court. Don't let the council away with robbing you of your licence. You had as much right as anyone else. :-|


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 2:14 pm 
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thats probably the most long winded judgment ive ever read.

ive just been given it ill ask if its ok to put up


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 2:21 pm 
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ALI T wrote:
thats probably the most long winded judgment ive ever read.

ive just been given it ill ask if its ok to put up



I've already sent a copy to TDO.

Section 10, should have been disputed, that's where I believe it all goes wrong, despite the right decision in favour of a grant. It's all very case specific. :-|


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 3:15 pm 
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On first, and brief review, some fundamental things occur to me. Not exclusively or entirely I consider:

"I am not persuaded that first come first served is the approach which must be taken, whether as a requirement or necessary consequence of the procedures set out in the Act, as a result of of any obligation of fairness, or on the basis of Chung".

Unfortunatley, although it was pointed out to the applicant's group, and the legal team were made aware of it, no argument was offered in respect specifically of the fundamental right to "Equality before the Law" or Human Rights in general.

By removing the order of application from the process, Sheriff Noble has ridden roughshod over every tenet of fairness. How can it be legally fair for anyone to be deliberately placed behind those who applied after them?

And how can Noble's argument be compatible with Human Rights, and Equality before the Law, which every decision he makes should be taken in accordance with.

I also see no slam dunk reason for granting the licence rather than referral back to the committee. Some petty excuse that the circumstances of the application couldn't be restored. This is balderdash, a smoke screen.

I also find it extraordinary that although he didn't pronounce in accordance with Human Rights, Sheriff Noble chose to introduce case precedent where it wasn't asked for by either counsel - (City of Glasgow District Council v Doyle, 1995 SLT 327) - and refrained from allowing argument to be led concerning this. He claims that he had already made his decision and that it supports it rather than influences it, yet either side might claim that they had a right to lead argument. I suspect this alone could be a poiunt of appeal, that Sheriff Noble erred in Law.

However, it seems that in making referral to this untested case precedent,s Sheriff Noble has sought justification for the direction he was steering his decision in. IMO this suggests a premeditation, predetermination of the judgement. It also calls into question the ultimate decision taken. Of course, Sheriff Noble would be aware that having granted the licence then the pursuer will not appeal this.

Also, IMO, if predetermination to give the council a judgement it can live with, possibly even "asked" for, then his action would go untested. Whether, as losing defender, the council appeals on this premise or not will open up real concerns as to the conduct of this process.

I suspect a fundamental breach of the Court's integrity here. It occurs to me that the Sheriff has delivered the judgement that the council wanted, possibly even directly asked for although we can't know this for sure, even to the point that it was timed to be conveniently delivered after the election - the date of decision being handwritten into a space left for it - coupled with the inordinate time it took for this apparently simple decision to be delivered.

On first review, the pursuer wins the appeal. The council gets a decision it can live with. The remaining sisted cases which conform to the same criteria will be granted by the court. Other cases sisted may well make a similar argument for grant, although experience suggests that the system will refer back for further refusal based on Sectiuon 10(3). The council has lost a few licences, the IPL is now dead in the water.

Other cases will come before the court to test Human Rights and Section 10 (3) in particular. The campaign will escalate, and the council's skulduggery in these cases will become supporting evidence in future cases.

It's just going to get bloodier. A weakened council is going to have to shell out ever more licence payer's money to defend the indefensible. And we all know that licence payer's cash, used to support council structures being diverted to the courts, means that taxpayers' are going to have to shell out more.

There is a solution the council should take. THey have an opportunity to resolve the matter once and for all.

We'll see.

Meanwhile we will take the time to consider the judgement in full.

What we do know for fact is that the council, having been told that Option was illegal, deliberately followed Option 2.

The opportunity cost to those denied their licences is considerable. As the council contests the remaining cases this is going to increase exponentially.

BTW

The actions of the Licensing section, the legal department and the elected officials in committee have already opened the council up to a significant compensation claim. Their next actions may well exacerbate this.

Victory now isn't about the grant of licences. Victory is reining in a council that plays politics in a disgraceful, autocratic, dictatorial and undemocratic way and punishing it through winning compenation for its transgressions.

Perhaps then the organisation will look at itself and a hard pressed public will hold individual elected and unelected officials to account.


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 5:21 pm 
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Skull wrote:
ALI T wrote:
thats probably the most long winded judgment ive ever read.

ive just been given it ill ask if its ok to put up



I've already sent a copy to TDO.



I'm reliably informed that the judgement will be available here by mid-evening.


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 5:29 pm 
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Dusty Bin wrote:
Skull wrote:
ALI T wrote:
thats probably the most long winded judgment ive ever read.

ive just been given it ill ask if its ok to put up



I've already sent a copy to TDO.



I'm reliably informed that the judgement will be available here by mid-evening.


One advantage of the internet is that many brains make sense of such documents. The feedback should be interesting.


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 5:52 pm 
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Jasbar wrote:
Dusty Bin wrote:
Skull wrote:
ALI T wrote:
thats probably the most long winded judgment ive ever read.

ive just been given it ill ask if its ok to put up



I've already sent a copy to TDO.



I'm reliably informed that the judgement will be available here by mid-evening.


One advantage of the internet is that many brains make sense of such documents. The feedback should be interesting.

yeah im also looking forward to dougies take on it :D :D :D


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 6:29 pm 
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Why would you want to gloat so much at other peoples loss ? Just seems strange to me ?


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 6:39 pm 
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blackpool wrote:
Why would you want to gloat so much at other peoples loss ? Just seems strange to me ?

who's gloating ?
and who's lost somit ?


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 7:17 pm 
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Dusty Bin wrote:
Skull wrote:
ALI T wrote:
thats probably the most long winded judgment ive ever read.

ive just been given it ill ask if its ok to put up



I've already sent a copy to TDO.



I'm reliably informed that the judgement will be available here by mid-evening.

It,s been on CRT's website since 1pm yesterday! :roll:

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If it "smells", don't lick it!

Steven Cairns, Benidorm 1997.


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 7:32 pm 
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THE KLANSMAN wrote:
Dusty Bin wrote:
Skull wrote:
ALI T wrote:
thats probably the most long winded judgment ive ever read.

ive just been given it ill ask if its ok to put up



I've already sent a copy to TDO.



I'm reliably informed that the judgement will be available here by mid-evening.

It,s been on CRT's website since 1pm yesterday! :roll:


They would have been better showing episodes of the Simpsons. :)


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 8:03 pm 
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Location: Miles away from paradise, not far from hell.
Skull wrote:
I've already sent a copy to TDO.

Most grateful to those that sent TDO a copy.

Kenneth Donald-v- City of Edinburgh Council. 2011

Alex

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