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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:29 am 
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The McCrone report

The McCrone report was a dossier written in 1974 by Professor Gavin McCrone, a leading government economist, for the Conservative UK government into the viability of an independent Scotland. The report concluded that North sea oil revenue would have given an independent Scotland one of the strongest currencies in Europe and a large tax surplus. It went on to say that officials advised government ministers on how to take "the wind out of the SNP sails". The incoming Labour administration classified the document as secret over fears it could give a further boost to the SNP's policy of Scottish independence. The dossier came to light in 2005 when the SNP obtained the report under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. The full provisions of the Act came into force on 1st January 2005 .


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4238744.stm

http://www.oilofscotland.org/mccronereport.pdf


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:43 am 
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SNP supporters have their heads in the tartan sky, all deluded.
What you get free in one hand is taxed in the other hand.

Just think of the price of a pint in the pub and the can of beer in the shop the working man likes to have after a hard weeks work. It will all rise if Sly Salmond gets his way, not to fight alcoholism but to pay for your "free" adult education and prescriptions.

Take your freedom , but the only people to benefit will be the
career politicians, not the tax paying worker.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:04 am 
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youbeenbusy wrote:
SNP supporters have their heads in the tartan sky, all deluded.
What you get free in one hand is taxed in the other hand.

Just think of the price of a pint in the pub and the can of beer in the shop the working man likes to have after a hard weeks work. It will all rise if Sly Salmond gets his way, not to fight alcoholism but to pay for your "free" adult education and prescriptions.

Take your freedom , but the only people to benefit will be the
career politicians, not the tax paying worker.


So if we go independent, you say we will be lied to, robbed blind and shafted by Scotlands politicians.
That will be different to being lied to, robbed blind and shafted by Englands politicians, as we have been for the last 300 years because....?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:24 pm 
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A capitalist democracy operates in the interests of big business. The people always come last after their career politicians. Independence is simply a control mechanism for King Salmond and his entourage to get close to the money men who would really run the country.

I can see it now, King Salmond, the benevolent dictator of Scotland, the man who takes from the rich (his pals) and gives to the poor. The history books will be filled with stories of how wee eck Salmond, shared the nations' wealth with its people. We will all stand laughing at our poor relations south of the border. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


How can anyone believe this sh*te? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:56 pm 
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Skull wrote:
A capitalist democracy operates in the interests of big business. The people always come last after their career politicians. Independence is simply a control mechanism for King Salmond and his entourage to get close to the money men who would really run the country.

I can see it now, King Salmond, the benevolent dictator of Scotland, the man who takes from the rich (his pals) and gives to the poor. The history books will be filled with stories of how wee eck Salmond, shared the nations' wealth with its people. We will all stand laughing at our poor relations south of the border. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


How can anyone believe this sh*te? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:



Your fascination with Alex salmond says it all also when are you going to realize that it is not only the SNP who want independence there are many more people of other political parties, and many who have know interst in any party . I suggest you check out the Scottish Independence Convention web site.

http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.com/


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:31 pm 
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Stationtone wrote:
Skull wrote:
A capitalist democracy operates in the interests of big business. The people always come last after their career politicians. Independence is simply a control mechanism for King Salmond and his entourage to get close to the money men who would really run the country.

I can see it now, King Salmond, the benevolent dictator of Scotland, the man who takes from the rich (his pals) and gives to the poor. The history books will be filled with stories of how wee eck Salmond, shared the nations' wealth with its people. We will all stand laughing at our poor relations south of the border. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


How can anyone believe this sh*te? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:



Your fascination with Alex salmond says it all also when are you going to realize that it is not only the SNP who want independence there are many more people of other political parties, and many who have know interst in any party . I suggest you check out the Scottish Independence Convention web site.

http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.com/



Listen, capitalist democracy operates in the interests of big business first, its politicians second and the general public last. It won't change through independence. It's a system, and a mechanism of control. This is not “Government of the people, for the people, by the people.“ It's a top-down system of control whereby the wealth and the power only flows one-way, to the top.

In top-down systems, there is little or no bottom-up accountability. Have a look around, you can't really believe independence will deliver power into the hands of its people, and suddenly. Those in power will become directly accountable for their actions.

Stationtone, you are dreaming. Scotland will never become shangri-la. The first objective of government is to control the population by making those in power unaccountable. Then all you have is more of the same, an elected dictatorship with everyone fighting to get into bed with those who own the country, and that isn't you. Why, because once they have your vote, you don't matter.

And Independence will change all of this. You've got to be having a laugh. #-o :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:10 pm 
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Quote:
o dear Bloodnock waken up , the people of Scotland did not vote for Alex Salmond in May they voted for the Scottish National Party and their policy's and before you give me your bile about this not being a mandate for independence it was a mandate for a referendum on independence .
So why not tell the forum why a tory/lib/dem government are so hell bent on keeping the union together when Scotland is so much of a burden ?

2 Why are the tories so interested in Scotland when they only have 1 Scottish MP :?:

3 Why are Northern Ireland going to get devolved powers on corporation tax and Scotland will under know circumstances be giving such powers . :?:



Dont talk wet Eck and the Eck party got in on a vote of protest against Labour...its Fech all to do with people worshipping Eckism Mandates.

Regards 2: Maybe its because Tories can see just how Supercilious Eck and the Eck Independance party really are.
Regards 3: Probably because the Northern Irish have more Nouse than the SNP.

The English Dont see Scotland as a Burden but as a partner....they do however, along with us right thinking Scots realise that we all need each other, Just like a Gun needs a Trigger or a Torch Needs a Battery, any given Item only ever works well if all its individual components are in place and are working together.

there is nothing more short sighted or blinkered than the Independance brigade...they should all be issued with white sticks with a braille SNP stamp on the handle....Eck probably even wants Braille to be In Gaelic as well....talk about the Blind leading the Blind... #-o


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:11 pm 
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To have anything that resembled a true democracy the system would have to make direct accountability it's focal point. This would mean total and unequivocal transparency at almost every level of Government and Industry, with an independent arbiter making those elected accountable for their actions. There would be no dancing the council through the courts to get a licence plate, at least, that would not be your first option. The power would lie with those holding the council to account on your behalf. And what about all those companies dodging their tax? That wouldn't happen either as they would be forced to pay their share.

What amazes me is how naive and ignorant you are as to how the system really works.

Without transparency and accountability, there is no democracy and Independence for Scotland won't change a thing.

Stationtone, it will never happen. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas, only people like you. :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:55 pm 
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Understand, all King Salmond really wants, is to create a Scotland in his own image. His entourage only follows because their interests lie on the same road. Once they achieve their aim, they will turn on each other like rabid dogs, fighting over a bone. Of course, Stationtone, you would rather believe they are doing all of this for the people of Scotland, in your dreams. :-|


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:22 pm 
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[quote="Skull"]Understand, all King Salmond really wants, is to create a Scotland in his own image.quote]

How you gonna make Scotland that fat?

:lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:04 pm 
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I really should just shut up because skull and bloodnock are putting a better case for independence than me . :lol: :lol:


Iain Macwhirter Now and Then

I've been in this game too long. I remember being taken by the Tories nearly twenty years ago to Brussels to hear Baroness Ellis warn that Scotland would not be allowed to join the EU. Don't even think about it! France and Spain would block an independent Scotland to discourage their own separatist movements. England wouldn't accept Scotland as a legitimate nation. There would be years of wrangling over budgets. England would dump financial liabilities onto Scotland to reduce its contribution to the EU budget etc etc..
Scotland would end up broke and isolated, a ragged and homeless fragment lost in the North Sea. It was tedious rubbish then, and it is rubbish now. Yet, barely a week goes by without some report or other announcing that wee Scotland would be frozen out of Europe and told to go and sit on the naughty step.
I've just been looking at the latest report to hit the front pages. It came from the House of Commons Library and it is a background briefing note, not an authoritative assessment of the Scotland's legal status within the EU. It carries its own health warning "[This briefing note] should not be relied upon as legal or professional advice or as a substitute for it. A suitably qualified professional should be consulted." It goes on to rehearse all the arguments that have been made about Scotland's relationship to the EU that have been made over the years. Pros and cons - naturally, the Scotsman chose the con and headlined this as "£8bn Bill To Join The Eurozone". This presupposes that Scotland would automatically join the euro, which of course is not going to happen, at least in the short term. Just like Sweden, Scotland would have the right to decide whether and when to join the euro. The report goes on to question whether membership would be automatic and finds differing views among constitutional authorities.
Lawyers make their money from creating legal complexity, so you will always find that there are differing legal opinions about secession. But the political reality is that it is inconceivable that the EU would try to block an independent Scotland from entry. The EU is founded on the principle of national self-determination, so the idea that Scotland would not be recognised as a nation in Europe is ludicrous. Scotland is already a part of the EU through its participation in the United Kingdom, and as a nation in its own right, Scotland would automatically qualify for membership of the EU. It would take concerted action by the other member states to prove, either that Scotland is financially insolvent, or that it is not a democracy, or that it is in in violation of the European convention on human rights. That is not going to happen.
Sure, there may be bureaucratic obstacles to formal entry - calculations of Scotland's contribution, relationship to the eurozone, Shenghen - all of which are the subject of opt outs by the UK. But many of these problems would also face the RUK (Residual United Kingdom) in exactly the same way. How much should England and Wales pay exempt of Scotland? What weight should English votes continue to carry in the Council etc etc..
But the central question: Scotland's ability to remain in the EU, answers itself. in 2004, the EU admitted a raft of small European countries many of which had been part of the Soviet empire. The idea that the EU would reject Scotland because it used to be part of the UK is laughable. Iceland is being given a free entry ticket to the EU as I write. Scotland is a wealthy country, unlike Greece or the small former Eastern block countries like Latvia and Estonia or minnows like Malta. Scotland has around £400 billion in oil reserves, a quarter of Europe's wind and wave energy, five of the top universities in the planet.
I despair at unionists who make these arguments because they are only destroying their own case. If this is the standard of debate we can expect in the run up to the independence referendum then - roll on independence!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:51 pm 
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What the fu*k has any of the above to do with anything? It's the system, get it? Democracy is a fine ideal, in principle, but that's not we have. It has been usurped by the money men and an unaccountable political class with vested interests. Politicians don't represent the public any more than Brian Souter gives a [edited by admin] about the people of Scotland.

What don't you understand about a lack of accountability and transparency? Is Iain MacWhirter going to give us the transparency we need to make our politicians directly accountable? I don't think so somehow.

The “democracy” we live in isn't going to change because it's not in the interests of those who own and run the country.

All Iain McWhirter is trying to justify is swapping one system of political hegemony for another. It's still the same neighbourhood but with a different gang running things.

Stationtone, you are truly delusional, and what's more. You think if you repeat their argument for independence this makes you a part of their gang. Get a grip, ffs. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:57 pm 
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The SNP are the only party in Scotland who are not influenced by big brother parties down south, The SNP are the only party who truely represent the political opinion of the majority, We have lefties, we have slightly left of centre, we have centre, we have slighty right of Centre politicians, political opinion all over the United Kingdom is compacting between slightly left and slightly right, the other parties portray they are left (Lib Dems) or they are centre (Labour) or right wing ( Tories ), i'd rather be represented by a party who have broad base of political opinion :D :D :D

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:58 pm 
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oh and btw Tone, the only reason you are coping and pasting their tripe on to the forum is because you have little or no understanding of how democracy is supposed to work and why it's not in their interests to make it happen. :-|


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:03 pm 
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Private Reggie wrote:
The SNP are the only party in Scotland who are not influenced by big brother parties down south, The SNP are the only party who truely represent the political opinion of the majority, We have lefties, we have slightly left of centre, we have centre, we have slighty right of Centre politicians, political opinion all over the United Kingdom is compacting between slightly left and slightly right, the other parties portray they are left (Lib Dems) or they are centre (Labour) or right wing ( Tories ), i'd rather be represented by a party who have broad base of political opinion :D :D :D



Thats correct reggie......well partially correct, let me correct it for you.....

Private Reggie wrote:
The SNP are the only party in Scotland


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